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Seeking input about concerns with breeder

3K views 5 replies 6 participants last post by  Heather's 
#1 ·
We got our Havanese from a breeder 6 months ago, when she was 4 months old. In this time, I have had growing concerns about the breeder and often find myself worrying about it. This has been our first experience with a breeder, and in fact our first dog, and I would really appreciate any feedback or advice.

1. Housebreaking: The breeder said our puppy was "pick of the litter" and she was planning on keeping her but had to sell her because of a family health crisis that would be taking up a lot of her time. Yet when we got her home we realized she had not been at all housebroken in the first 4 months of her life, and it's been very difficult-in spite of working with a trainer and following all the rules- to break her of peeing where she shouldn't. I keep wondering, if you were going to keep a dog, wouldn't you housebreak her in the first months of her life when dogs are most trainable?

2. Getting to know our puppy: While picking up our puppy, I asked multiple times to see the outbuilding where our puppy spent most of her time, explore the outdoor area where the puppies get to be outside, and learn more about an average day in the life of our puppy, so that we could help keep her in a routine she was used to. My requests kept getting deflected and, not wanting to push too hard, ended up leaving without seeing any of this, although I did get to meet my pup's mamma. In the following months, I reached out a few times via email saying how much we loved our dog but were still interested in learning more about her routine before we got her, and this was met with growing hostility. At first the response I received was "I don't understand what you want to know" and "if you are not happy, send her back." Then I assured her we were happy and that I was simply interested in getting to know her better, e.g., if I'm leaving her in a crate for 2-3 hours, is this something she is used to? I clarified what I was asking by including a list of specific questions like how often and for how long was she outside, how many hours a day was she crated, was she used to being alone, etc. I tried to reassure her that we were not unhappy with her or the dog, just trying to do a good job with training etc. She wrote back to say she still didn't understand what we were asking and that it didn't matter what happened before she came to us, that "whatever habits she had when she was living here, she forgot about it." We exchanged several more emails (which I'm happy to share) in which I found her hostility to escalate and she never answered any of my questions, instead getting extremely defensive, using multiple exclamation points and question marks. I feel quite upset by this exchange and it's left me with great concerns about this breeder. Was it unreasonable for me to ask about my puppy's patterns and habits? Is it normal for a breeder to find these questions somehow offensive, in spite of multiple assurances?

3. Health issues: Because of all the above, I started to have anxiety about our puppy and the story we were given. My trust was shaken. I have been worrying that some health issue will show up. Sure enough, we noticed a few weeks ago that our pup's front left leg started getting quite funny looking and twisted-her foot now sits at 90 degrees. I just took her in and was told she has valgus deformity of the carpus. We're waiting to hear back about how bad it is. But when I told the vet a bit about our experience with the breeder, our vet strongly suspected that the breeder knew all along. Obviously we don't know this for sure, but the possibility is very upsetting. I think Havanese tend to have funny-looking front legs a lot of the time, and I don't know if this is a common issue… our breeder's website advertises how straight her dogs' legs are, complete with pictures of front legs… so I don't know but all this feels weird to me. The other thing is that when I wrote to the breeder that we'd taken a wonderful long walk, she got very upset, saying puppies are not supposed to go for long walks. I assured her that we'd consulted our vet and were taking her advice about exercise. But it was a red flag for me that she got so upset about us taking our 6-month old dog for a one-hour walk!

There are other concerns as well:

4. Extreme cleanliness: We had to travel far to pick up our puppy. The breeder asked that I wear clean clothes and insisted that I leave my bag and brand new puppy carrier outside to avoid bringing germs into the house. I had to wear sterile booties going into the house and disinfect my hands with bleach. I wasn't allowed to see any of the puppies (she had a litter of 8-week old puppies)-she didn't want me in the same space because of risk of germs. Are all these precautions normal?

5. Getting to know the breeder: We did a ton of research into breeders, learning all about puppy mills vs. backyard breeders vs. more professional breeders… and researched reviews of breeders, etc. We picked a breeder that looked great on paper and had a detailed and professional website, with AKC dogs. The only funny thing I thought at the tie was that she wouldn't talk by phone, only email, saying things could be misunderstood by phone and she wanted everything in writing.

6. Breeding practices: I have checked back on the breeder's site several times since we got our pup. There have been at least 2 other 4-month old pups for sale in that time. In addition, there is a new litter of puppies every 1-3 months. The breeder has 3 breeding females. Isn't this too many litters for healthy mammas? I really don't know about these things but I'm a bit concerned. I also met the mamma of our pup and she seemed cowering and not terribly healthy. The breeder didn't let her down on the floor in the entry room where I was meeting my pup (the only place in the house I was welcomed).

Sorry for the overly long post, but I am hoping for any advice or feedback or reassurances-on the leg issue, on any follow-up we should have with, or about, our breeder. I am quite distressed. I feel some sense of responsibility and am interested in supporting good practices and also good feedback… Thanks for reading this far!
 
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#2 ·
I think you are right to be concerned about your breeder as there are multiple red flags in what you describe. My first contact with my breeder was through email but that was followed up with phone calls. I then went out to meet her in person at her home. I was invited in to talk and meet all of her Havanese, who were very playful and friendly. We got to peek in to see the mom and puppies but they were too young to handle. She answered all of our questions and we ended up giving her a deposit as we had fallen in love with the breed.
Your breeder definitely seems to have something to hide by keeping you away from the building your puppy was kept in. Your puppy very well might have been caged in a kennel situation and not had any potty training. Any responsible breeder should have picked up on the leg deformity also. I am sorry you and your little one have to go through this. Her attitude and refusal to answer questions is also disturbing. If you have a contract with her it should spell out if she will take any responsibility for any health problems or medical bills you may have. I have a feeling by what you have said that you will probably get no help from this breeder and you will be on your own. This forum has many members who will be able to answer questions and give advice and support as you care for your little one. Good luck with everything.
 
#4 ·
Hi of all the issues you have I would be most concerned with your pups front legs. What did the vet say? A four month old puppy will still have accidents especially being raised with a breeder who has to many puppy's. It sounds like she doesn't have waiting lists and gets some older pups needing homes. I would try to just let it go and enjoy your new Havanese. I bought two very close in age and I find them very hard to house brake. Other people have had success a lot faster than I did. I don't know of very many who were totally house broken at 4 mo.
I would be upset that she closed the communication with you and I'm sorry. My first Havanese was from a similar situation only I didn't know as much as you did about doing my research. Their was a back building I never even thought to ask where my pup had been living. The breeder had two batches of Havanese out side in a large pin playing. I fell in love with all of them. It wasn't in tell I joined this group that I found out about back yard breeders. Maddie has bad legs and her bone never attached to her foot. We spent about $1,200 with doctor visits while the breeder closed the door to us.I can say that she is the best dog I have ever owned and am hoping you will be able to just move forward and be happy you saved your puppy and will do everything you can to make a great life for her.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I agree with Suzi. While there are certainly many troubling aspects about your experience with your breeder, you have the puppy now, and it sounds like you lover her. You might not even be ABLE to return her to this woman, even if you wanted to.

It is perfectly normal for a 4 month old small breed puppy not to be completely potty trained. If they aren't having accidents at that point it is because the owner is managing them well and setting them up for success.

As far as her leg is concerned, it is certainly not "normal" fora Havanese puppy to have crooked legs. Good breeders work very hard to breed straight legged puppies. OTOH even the best breeder will occasionally have a puppy with less than perfect legs, and this is NOT always obvious when the puppy is very young. The other factor is that a puppy can damage a growth plate easily by jumping off a bed or sofa when they are too young, which can cause uneven or crooked growth. With a puppy with BOTH front legs crooked, it is highly likely that it is genetic, even if the parents were straight. But if it's just one leg, it can be hard to prove whether it was genetic or caused by an early injury. (such an injury can even happen before the puppy leaves the breeder, and even if it happened in your home, it could happen so fast, and with no obvious pain, that you never notice) The GOOD thing is that even puppies with VERY crooked legs USUALLY live long, healthy lives as pets, though they might have to be limited in terms of sport work.

Maya Angelou said, "When we know better, we do better." Now, when you get a puppy in the future, you will know the pitfalls to avoid, and will be more discriminating in terms of the breeder. In the mean time, enjoy the adorable little sprite you have, whether or not her breeding is great and whether or not her legs are straight. You'll get the potty training under control if you are consistent with your confinement and supervision! :)
 
#6 ·
Your puppy looks very cute! It's unfortunate that your breeder has not been helpful. I would definitely notify her of the puppy's diagnosis. Maybe your vet could write a letter. I would hope that the breeder would feel some responsibility to assist with your puppy's medical expenses. My first havanese had a very bad heart murmur and crooked legs. Sparky was a great little dog and had a long happy life. I was much more careful when we got our second havanese. Scout's breeder has alway been there for questions. Even now she is interested in his life. You asked all the right questions and were being nice. I would just go forward and enjoy your little one.
 
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