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Dominance and fighting...
Old 12-31-2012, 10:07 AM   #1
Beanie
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Dominance and fighting...

I have two female Havs; Beanie is 3 and is clearly dominant; Dottie is 6 months and loves to play, but gets disciplined in the process. My friend advised me that currently Dottie has "puppy license" and that means that Beanie allows her to get away with things because she is a pup. However, my friend also advised me that before long they will definitely start fighting. Yikes. I'm not sure I want that; has anyone had any experience with this? So far, if Dottie crosses the line -- bothers Beanie when she doesn't want to play, etc. Beanie will snap at her to warn her, but there has not been any full on fighting. So far. And I hope there never is. Beanie is quite bossy.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:11 PM   #2
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I disagree that there will definitely be fighting. I am sure Dave will help you with good advice and articles to read.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:55 PM   #3
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It is possible that 2 females may fight,but if they have both been spayed it hopefully won't be so bad.Nellie who is usually a very sweet little girl can sometimes out of the blue, be a real bitch [proper use of the word] to Dizzie,who is puzzled by this behaviour[it can be quite scary],normally he is the leader of the pack,but every now and again she becomes very jealous,and gives him what for.So she is ignored after an outburst,sometimes even put in another room for a few minutes.Then all is well,girls have problems with their hormones!
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:15 PM   #4
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Thanks, Clare... Good to know . Dottie will be spayed next month; Beanie is already, but gets quite jealous of the little one, especially when Beanie is sitting on my lap and Dottie wants up too...
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:38 PM   #5
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Lots of people have more than one female dog, and they seem to be able to get along in relative harmony. I wouldn't borrow trouble.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:40 PM   #6
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My two, who were both neutered males, fought like cats and dogs at certain times. When the fights started, I always blamed Bailey, who was one year older than Tyler. Then, one day, I noticed that Tyler was the instigator. He started all the fights and some were pretty bad. They never hurt each other because I was always there to break it up, but if I wasn't, I'd hate to think what could have happened. They were actually vicious with each other, or so it sounded. Then when it was over, they both acted toward each other like nothing ever happened. When Tyler joins Bailey on the Rainbow Bridge, I am planning on getting only one. It's a lot easier and they seem to bond better with their humans, as Tyler is going now.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
I have two female Havs; Beanie is 3 and is clearly dominant; Dottie is 6 months and loves to play, but gets disciplined in the process. My friend advised me that currently Dottie has "puppy license" and that means that Beanie allows her to get away with things because she is a pup. However, my friend also advised me that before long they will definitely start fighting. Yikes. I'm not sure I want that; has anyone had any experience with this? So far, if Dottie crosses the line -- bothers Beanie when she doesn't want to play, etc. Beanie will snap at her to warn her, but there has not been any full on fighting. So far. And I hope there never is. Beanie is quite bossy.
Your friend is right about "puppy liscence" . With the start of adolescence at about this time, things can change in their relationship. Moreso with males but definitely possible with females this new attitude can be significant or it can be next to nothing. Dominance in dogs is very misunderstood. Nearly all events people attribute to dominance are not real dominance, . Dominance is not a personality trait. There is no such thing as a "dominant" dog. I have 76 articles on the topic and they are pretty much universal in their theory. I like this definition best . ...

"Dominance(Social Dominance). An ethological construct describing features of a social relationship, which addresses the management of social conflict, including (but not limited to) the allocation of limited resources, through the exertion of control and influence. This takes place in a way that minimizes the risk of overt aggression by way of the use of conventionalized ritual display behaviors. This minimization of risk involves a cost–benefit evaluation of the benefits of seeking to win a particular social conflict versus the likely associated cost (O’Heare, 2004). The term “dominance” is misused and abused to the point that it is often harmful to invoke it because it promotes adversarial relationships between dog and owner. Also often used as a label for a dog using countercontrol behaviors as a result of aversive stimulation and coercion. A counterproductive construct that distracts from the functional relationship between behavior and the environment, which actually causes and explains behaviors.

O'Heare, J. (2011). Encyclopedic glossary of terms and abbreviations in the technology and principles of behavior. Retrieved Month, day, year from http://www.associationofanimalbehavi.../glossary.html
But to address your concern., You will never know what will happen, one dog may be "dominant" in one area and the other in a different. Not much you can do about it. It's something that is best just observed and admired. If aggression becomes an issue, that is when you intervene.
here is one of the original articles I have . http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy
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Last edited by davetgabby; 12-31-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:22 PM   #8
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here is more from Patricia McConnell.

"Here’s what “dominance” ISN’T: It has nothing to do with decision-making about the actions of a group or one other individual. There is no relationship in the literature between who decides when to move on, where to go or what to do. Period. (Bookmark this point!)

It has nothing to do with “who’s in front.” (In prey animals, the ‘dominant’ member of the group is often found in the middle of the herd if the group is in an area that might be dangerous.)

It is not fixed and immutable: Who “has dominance” can vary in time (as one individual ages for example), in space (one individual can have it in one area and not another) and in context (perhaps one individual with dominance doesn’t like pork chops.) In some species it appears to be linear (as in chickens, for example, in which if A is over B, and B is over C, then A is always over C). In most social mammals, it is non-linear and much, much more fluid and complicated.

It is highly influenced by resource distribution: “Clumped, high quality resources” tend to exaggerate social hierarchies, which probably explains why captive wolves appear to be absolutely obsessed with hierarchy, while wild wolves appear to be more relaxed about issues related to social status. (Keep this in mind for later when we talk about studies on feral dogs versus owned dogs.)

It is usually maintained by visual or chemical displays that are innate and are species-specific. It can be achieved by an initial fight in which one individual wins and the other backs off, or, more commonly, by nothing more than the types of display specific to that species. (Think high tail, erect ears and forward posture of a captive wolf). If the individuals continue to fight over a resource, then there is not an established hierarchy.

It is not a relationship desired equally by all individuals in a group. In complex social societies, not everyone is equally motivated to be first in line for the goodies. In our species, for example, some people would love the status associated with being famous, while others would consider a guarantee of a great table at a restaurant to be a poor trade for losing their privacy and would avoid it at all costs. In some species, high status is associated with increased responsibility, which can be dangerous and burdensome".
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:24 PM   #9
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I have two males, one altered and the other is not...yet. Augie (altered) is a very laid back dog. Finn, not so much. He is always trying to get something going. Always trying to hump Augie - Augie just stands there. When Augie tries to hump Finn, Finn does NOT like it one bit. In playing fetch, they will both go after the ball or whatever is being thrown - Augie makes a big show of going after it and if he does get it, he always gives it up to Finn......unless it is something highly prized by him - the sherpa disc or a nylabone - and he decides he wants it. He will growl, and Finn will back off without further effort to get it from Augie, and wait until Augie is good and ready to give the item up. A tennis ball is one thing I had to remove from the scene; I think they might fight to the death over a tennis ball. At least it sounded like they might. I have also noticed that Augie can take Finn down, during wrestling, and pin him to the ground, it looks like by the neck and hold him there, even though Finn is a bit larger. Very interesting to watch.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:33 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by motherslittlehelper View Post
I have two males, one altered and the other is not...yet. Augie (altered) is a very laid back dog. Finn, not so much. He is always trying to get something going. Always trying to hump Augie - Augie just stands there. When Augie tries to hump Finn, Finn does NOT like it one bit. In playing fetch, they will both go after the ball or whatever is being thrown - Augie makes a big show of going after it and if he does get it, he always gives it up to Finn......unless it is something highly prized by him - the sherpa disc or a nylabone - and he decides he wants it. He will growl, and Finn will back off without further effort to get it from Augie, and wait until Augie is good and ready to give the item up. A tennis ball is one thing I had to remove from the scene; I think they might fight to the death over a tennis ball. At least it sounded like they might. I have also noticed that Augie can take Finn down, during wrestling, and pin him to the ground, it looks like by the neck and hold him there, even though Finn is a bit larger. Very interesting to watch.
yeah Linda, generally speaking ,humping is not evidence of dominance, remember dominance has more to do with resources that are up for grabs sort of speak. yep certain things ,one dog will get priority access while another article will be controlled by the other. Dominance is a relationship between like species, so don't worrry about TV when they tell you not to let your dog "dominate" you. THAT IS THE BIGGEST DOG MEME OF ALL TIMES.
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Last edited by davetgabby; 12-31-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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