Food and Health - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
Dave T
 
davetgabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 10,757
Submit Photo: 3
Photo Submissions 112 Times in 110 Posts
Food and Health

This is one topic that can raise any one's hackles. We all try to do the best we can for our dogs when it comes to food and health. Can most of us do better? Probably . ME INCLUDED. My purpose is not to preach on what we should be doing so much as to inform you of what generally seems to be the thoughts of leading ,non biased pet food experts. I think it would be a safe statement to make when I say our pet's food plays a vital role in their health and behavior. And there will always be a difference of opinion when it comes to feeding raw in particular. I can only quote the person most of you know as Sabine. I know her well and I think as an expert in pet nutrition , she is not that much different in her views on this topic as most leading nutritionists ,example Dr. Pitcairn. To quote Sabine..."raw is not for every owner nor every dog".
That being said, I think that what the experts are saying is that the closer the food is to this , the better, HEALTH WISE . The more processed a food becomes, generally the more degraded it becomes. I think it's important to know the differences in the food types that exist and what if anything we can do to improve our dogs diets before the fact and certainly be aware that many of our dogs health and behavior problems can possibly be remedied by a change in diet. I certainly would encourage anyone that suspects food as being the cause of a problem to seek guidance from an expert and keep in mind all dogs are different.
We all have different reasons for feeding what we do, and that's fine. I just wanted to say that the old saying "we are what we eat" is probably just as true to our dogs as it is with us. With that I'll leave you with a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3wLT...ayer_embedded#!

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild

Last edited by davetgabby; 01-27-2013 at 04:02 PM.
davetgabby is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 01:54 AM
Senior Member
 
emichel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 701
Submit Photo: 3
Photo Submissions 8 Times in 8 Posts
Interesting video, Dave. I have been reading and thinking a lot on the subject of dog nutrition, motivated by wanting to feed my dog the best food possible. During my studies I have been amazed by the vehemence some folks have about the rightness of their choices! I'm not sure why this is, but maybe it's as simple as that we care so much about our animals, they are totally dependent on us for their care, and it is very difficult to figure out what is best. I think that sometimes when people decide on a course of action for themselves, they might be a little insecure as to whether or not they made the right choice, so have to dig in their heels and insist that it's the only way to go.

Anyhow -- overlooking Dr. Becker's rather patronizing dismissal of the concerns some people have about the raw diet, I was very interested in what she had to say about parasites and infectious agents. I am almost convinced about what she said about parasites not being a problem if the meat is frozen, but for me she did not effectively disprove that salmonella and other bacteria are a danger. I think that just because dogs and cats naturally have these bacteria in their gut without becoming ill, does not convince me that adding extra in through raw meat wouldn't make illness more likely -- not to mention the possibilty of humans becoming ill from it. Just because she throws around phrases like "facultatively anaerobic" and "enteropathogenic bacteria" in a confident tone of voice does not mean that she is right!

For a contrasting point of view, I found this article:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...make-you-barf/

I'm not saying that I think that Dr. McKenzie is right and Dr. Becker is wrong. As I said, I'm just a beginner trying to figure it out. Actually I think they both sound a little fanatical, in opposite ways, but he does put into words something I have thought about some of the raw food afficionados -- that they might just be slightly romanticizing the idea that our dogs need to eat like they're wild wolves. Even that little poodle I saw sitting on a pink cushion at the groomers? Really? I guess I'm having a bit of difficulty sorting out the trendy and romanticized part from the science. In any case, I think that Dr. McKenzie's argument that "anatomy does not always correlate with function" makes a lot of sense. He also points out, as I suspected might be the case, that wild wolves do not actually live very long. As I have read elsewhere, they often succumb to malnutrition, parasites, or diseases, and of course do not have access to antibiotics and surgery as do our pampered pets! Then he goes on to claim that that sanctuary wolves thrive on dog food. Too funny.

All that having been said, I am very concerned about the safety of commercial pet food. Actually, I have been concerned for some time about the safety of commercial human food as well. I began working in the organic natural food movement more than 30 years ago, but back then it was cheap, at least compared to now! The meat industry, in particular, is filty! Every time I watch a documentary like "Food Inc." or read a book like Jonathan Safran Foer's "Eating Animals", for some time afterward I will only eat locally grown organic vegetarian food, but then the memory fades and I will give in to my craving for teriyaki chicken. Sometimes it's just best to not think about it.

Well, I've certainly gone on long enough. All of this is to say, my main concern with a raw diet is the source of the meat. We are not talking about the dog snatching a healthy living rabbit and eating it, we are most likely talking about him eating meat that has been raised in a factory farm and processed under very alarming conditions. Those organic small farm chickens are extremely expensive, and though I indulge in one once in a while myself, I could not possibly afford to feed it to my dog on a daily basis. For me, cooking the meat is a compromise I can live with, and it seems like it would make the meat safer.

The more I learn about this, the more I am leaning towards all home cooked in the evening, supplemented by a little kibble while I am at work. We do not live in a perfect world! And yes, I will consult with Sabine first.


Eileen and Benjamin

Last edited by emichel; 01-29-2013 at 12:44 PM.
emichel is offline  
post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 12:46 PM
Mom to Rosie
 
FancyNancy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New Paltz, NY
Posts: 454
Submit Photo: 40
Photo Submissions 5 Times in 5 Posts
Interesting video Dave. I could have lived without the part where she described dogs eating whole litters of baby bunnies like popping tootsie rolls. A little too call of the wild for me! Anyway, to those of you reading, I'm a Sabine client and she is GREAT!

FancyNancy is offline  
 
post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 01:21 PM
Senior Member
 
TilliesMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,278
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 36 Times in 36 Posts
ya, that is one of the many reasons I home cook. Too much "controversy" over raw and I, myself am super squimish about raw meat... even for my OWN human family!
I find exclusiviely homecooking is kind of the best of both worlds. for me. It's easy (I only cook once a week) not very expensive (once you are all set up with tools and supplements) and I know she is getting everything she needs. Her teeth are in great shape too!

Tammy and Tillie
TilliesMom is offline  
post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
Dave T
 
davetgabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 10,757
Submit Photo: 3
Photo Submissions 112 Times in 110 Posts
Thanks for that Eileen. I'll get to your article in a bit. I hear what you're saying. I think it is indeed a volatile subject with people sometimes. People don't like to be told what to feed their children or their dogs. Gosh , we're still debating what is healthy for humans. I don't' think she is romanticizing the wolf idea. No matter what topic one picks, you will always find someone to pick it apart. Comparing dogs to wolves has caused enough misinformation already . But think about it, it's man that has invented kibble and now most dogs are on it. I don't think it matters whether we're talking about toy poodles or GSDs. That a poodle should not eat raw is based on our views not the science behind it. I try to make my own decisions based on science in most cases. When you research this topic I think the vast majority of people in the nutrition field that don't have an ulterior motif or conflict of interest will tell you that the least processed a food is the better. Yes you will also find some that say no that are well educated in the field too. Yes we have to be careful of salmonela but geeze we have to do this with our own food. I think it';s blown out of proportion. and for many a scapegoat. What really irritates me is people that don't REALLY know much about nutrition and are selling crap dog food. And what really is worse is huge corporations bull****ing the public about how good their food is , when they KNOW BETTER. They spend millions on research and advertising and stilll KNOWINGLY put this crap out there. As much as I'm not a fan of dogfoodanalysis , if you look at their top ten list, or five star foods next to none of them are from the corporate giants. Enough, with this rant ,but these people really piss me off. If you want to talk with Sabine about the corporate giants you'll get an even harsher opinion. lol My purpose is not to make anyone feel guilty about what they feed their dogs only to give people what seems to be the opinions of what I find to be experts in the field. Thanks for that article , I'm going to read it now.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild

Last edited by davetgabby; 01-28-2013 at 07:08 PM.
davetgabby is offline  
post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-2013, 03:17 AM
Senior Member
 
emichel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 701
Submit Photo: 3
Photo Submissions 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanks, Dave. I very much appreciate all of your contributions on here! I have never thought that you , or anyone on here that I can think of, were ideological about what to feed, but I have encountered a few such people in my community. One of the more memorable occurred only a few days after I brought my puppy home. As I recall, I was feeling pretty overwhelmed about it all, and felt that I was working 24/7 to take care of my new puppy. I was rather proud that I was spending what seemed like a lot of money for a good quality kibble. The pet I had had previously was a cat who lived for 17 years on grocery store kibble, but I had since learned that there were better options. Anyway, I walked into one of the many small pet supply stores around here -- I forget what I was looking for -- and the owner asked me what I was feeding. I told her the brand of kibble I was feeding, and she began to fill me in on why that wasn't good. (I later learned she was a big raw advocate). I basically told her I was satisfied with what I was feeding my dog for the moment, though would think about what she was saying, but just needed to get what I was looking for. I think it was a harness or leash. She said, rather haughtily, "Well, I wouldn't feed that to my dog". I felt like she'd slapped me in the face, and never went back to that store. I was a little touchy, I'm sure, from not getting enough sleep, but that kind of attitude is not the way to pursuade someone to your way of thinking.

I know that corporations exist only to maximize the profits of their shareholders, but even so, I would hope that with so many people getting savvier and more particular about what they are feeding their dogs, the companies will have to be more careful about what they are doing if they want to keep peoples' business. Anyone who bases important decisions only on slick advertising is a fool, anyway, but it takes a lot of work to wade through all of the cr*p.

While I do like to understand the science behind things, I don't think that science is the only way of thinking about the world. One thing I didn't like about the article I posted is that the author was too dismissive of other ways of knowing. I happen to think that intuition, feeling, and common sense are worth something. All 3 of those things tell me that it is better, both for my dog and myself, to eat food that is fresh and unadulterated rather than massively processed. However, human convenience does have to be factored in to things. Kibble is extremely convenient, especially considering that if it is a good one it is nutritionally balanced. It also doesn't spoil quickly, so that you can put it out and if the dog doesn't eat it right away it will not rot and be wasted. It's also easy to transport. All of these things are worth a lot, I think, so its popularity is understandable. However, fitting in as much fresh food as possible seems like a very worthy goal for anyone!

I'm planning to contact Sabine later this week -- just need a little more time to formulate my thoughts and questions. Whatever she comes up with is going to have to be really simple! Anyone who knows me will tell you -- I DO NOT COOK. Though now, apparently, I am cooking for my dog, that's just how much I love him. I'm gonna have to start cooking for myself more, though, because now when he sees me standing at the stove he assumes I'm making something for him. LOL I do want to get started on a food plan soon, though, since I want to be sure we're on the right track. Stay tuned!


Eileen and Benjamin
emichel is offline  
post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-2013, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
Dave T
 
davetgabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 10,757
Submit Photo: 3
Photo Submissions 112 Times in 110 Posts
nicely said Eileen. It's nice to find someone without an agenda. You'll like Sabine's approach. She realizes everyone has different needs and knows the best foods . The key is finding the right food not only for you but more important your dog. And that's what she's good at. Good for you.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
davetgabby is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome