Neutering/Zeutering/Timing Q's? - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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Question Neutering/Zeutering/Timing Q's?

Hi Hav Fans: A few q's about neutering...
1. Timing: our little clown is nine months. reasonably house-trained but a frequent sprayer outdoors and last night he tried to hump a male Golden Retriever who outweighed him by a good 70 pounds. (Pretty funny at the time but...yeesh). The breeder had asked us wait a year, saying he needed all the hormone flow for his bones/growth plates (or something like that). The vet said six months, b/c spraying etc is hard to break afterwards. Advice?

2)Has anyone heard about Zeuterin? Approved by the FDA; it's an injection that shrinks testicles, no anesthesia, much less invasive. No "castration" and it allows some testosterone to keep flowing. Used by increasing numbers of nonprofit clinics and a few vets (many vets are suspicious of it,plus they also have lucrative surgeries set up already). I am apprehensive but...?

3)How much careful watching does the Clown need post-surgery? For how long? Did y'all use the Elizabethan collars or not necessary? What impact does the surgery have on his behavior, short-term, long-term?

4)Cost. I was stunned. Petco which transports dogs to nonprofit clinic: $137; one local vet, initial visit , $40 plus about $200 for procedure; another vet, $53 for visit plus $340 for procedure and our vet? OMG. $640. Really? Really? But as crazyexpensive as she is--and highly regarded--I wonder whether we should suck it up and pay, because what if something goes wrong? Or is that likely?

Advice, folks??? thanks so much...FourPaws
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post #2 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 09:22 AM
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As background I tend to be on the holistic side. I follow Jean Dodds and my other dog, a labrador, has had very few shots, we use titers when possible. I am also somewhat paranoid when it comes to my dogs.

I just had my hav neutered at eight months. I was going to wait a year but there is a facility where I like to board my other dog and they require it. Also his adult teeth were in and he had a couple of baby teeth hanging around that seemed fairly ingrained and he kept getting food stuck. It was time to get the baby teeth pulled to keep the dental issues from forming.

I did conventional procedure at a conventional vet. I paid around $100. they didnt charge to pull the baby teeth. I used a fabric e-collar for recovery when I couldnt watch him.

My hav's procedure - as was my lab's - was very uneventful. The biggest problem I had was keeping my hav quiet post surgery. I have a high energy hav. His behavior is the same as before the procedure. You can always opt out of the procedure - lots of people dont neuter their dogs all over the world.

I have not heard of the drug you mention, but I would use caution with any hormone. I also think you're getting screwed on the price. Something can go wrong at any vet but this procedure gets done a zillion times a week.

Right before my dog's procedure a friend had her poodle neutered. She took him to the low cost spay and neuter because she was so ticked off at the $500 quote from her vet! Her dog did just fine too.

Good luck with your decision!
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post #3 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 09:59 AM
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I got this info from Ian Dunbar . ..."Neutering male dogs DOES change their behavior to some extent. They are likely to roam less (if given free range) and urinate less, yet still urine mark and still use the same urination posture. Thus, scent marking is not resolved, but the frequency (hence volume of urine) is much less.�

However, castration has no effect on dog-human aggression, does not make male dogs less aggressive to other dogs, alter their rank in the hierarchy, or appear to change their personality much. BUT castrated male dogs no longer smell like intact males and so this dramatically changes the behavior of other male dogs.�Castrated male dogs smell more like anoestrous females.�Other male dogs react towards castrated males as if they are females �and so, other male dogs harass or threaten them less and hence, the behavior of the castrated male eventually changes (feeling less threatened). Castrated male dogs are involved in fewer fights with other males and their aggressiveness is reduced, not directly by castration, but indirectly by the altered behavior of other males.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
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post #4 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. I am quite anxious about new treatments, injections as well, but then I think about anesthesia?? Nonetheless, I think I'll go traditional route.
You paid $100? Wow. What part of the country do you live in? I'm in Northern Jersey. When I asked the receptionist at my--admittedly fabulous--vet why she charged so much, she just cut me off with, "Because that's what the doctor charges." Gulp.

Apparently she also schedules a follow-up appointment at 14 days to "remove stitches." (Though that visit is included in the price.) Don't most vets/clinics used disintegrating stitches?

Our Clown is super high-energy as well. When you weren't at home to monitor him, did you crate him? How long did it take for him to stop trying to scratch at the incision? Did his energy or "personality" change after the procedure?

I'm just trying to figure out, roughly, what to be prepared for and how to best prepare our schedule to keep him comfortable...thank you for replying!
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post #5 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 10:02 AM
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For what it's worth: I have a girl pup who isn't spayed yet (only 4 months old) but we talked about timing a lot with our vet. There is basically no science to back up the claim that you need a wait a year for hormones to help with development. It's an idea a lot of people have because it sounds like it makes sense but there's no data to back it up or a consensus in the scientific community. For girls, he prefers to spay before their first heat around 6 months because it's a slighter easier procedure (first heat creates extra tissue that's harder to work around) and they can bounce back a little easier when they're younger. The procedure for boys is probably the same at any age.

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Zelda Violet, born March 2013
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post #6 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you, too, Avocado and Dave: this is all excellent and eye-opening info! I love this incredibly helpful, generous forum.
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post #7 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 11:06 AM
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Hello...I just wanted to add I felt just as anxious as you this past Ftiday when I had Mack neutered. He is five months old. He was fine. He cried a little the first night. .but was easily consolable. I opted to buy extra pain meds just in case. I gave him the medicine yesterday morning. .not because he exhitbited any signs of pain...but more for me to reassure myself that he wasn't in pain. The vet wants him to take it easy for a week. ..but try telling Mack that. Yoday je is back to his normal self. We didn't have to use our Mack has shown no interest in exploring the . His incision site is healing nicely. The hardest part is waiting the 7 days to bathe him.
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post #8 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reassurance! I'm guessing you had the traditional surgery...feel better soon Mack!
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post #9 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 03:41 PM
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I have done much research and contacted vets and dog behaviorists regarding the timing of neutering.

The earliest a vet should neuter a dog is 6 months because it can take up to 6 months for one or both testicles to descend. If the testicles don't descend they need to be removed because undescended testicles will turn cancerous.

If the testicles have properly descended, the timing is a trade-off between behavioral and health issues.

Current research indicates the risk of certain cancers are higher for dogs who are neutered before "puberty". Also, as previously mentioned, there are health benefits to waiting until a dogs growth plates have closed. Unlike females, there does not appear to be any converse health BENEFITS to early neutering.

It can be argued that there are behavioral benefits to early neutering, as in behavioral benefits that make it easier for the owner.


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post #10 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-28-2013, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Gibbs' Mom and Dad. Not exactly sure how "puberty" is defined in a male dog--testicles have descended, he is marking territory and has a grand old time mounting a big fluffy pillow bed and last night tried with an enormous, patient, male Golden Retriever.

My vet dismissed the notion of growth plates closing and needing testosterone post six months. But others endorse this notion emphatically. How do you know when the growth plates have closed?

Have you made a decision? I am so grateful for the thoughtfulness and seriousness of these replies (another fresh worry: we just gave him a major summer buzzcut, and I saw that one of his forelegs seems a little bowed...??!!???). Am going to meet with a new vet tomorrow and all this input will give me good questions to pose...FourPaws
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