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post #1 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
Dave T
 
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Bones

""Raw bones are the best thing you can provide for your dog's oral health, but some are more
problematic than others.
You can save quite a bit of money by buying bones from your local grocery store or butcher as
well. Turkey and chicken necks, chicken wings and leg quarters, beef, lamb and pork neck bones
or ribs, lamb and veal shanks and oxtails are all suitable options. These are more or less
consumable, depending on how aggressive of a chewer a dog is.
You can also give recreational bones that are not fully consumable, for example beef or sheep
knuckle bones, but please do not give the tube shaped or sliced middle parts, “marrow bones”
that have the knuckles already removed, like those sold at grocery stores:
The fact that these bones are weight bearing affects the texture of the bone, and the older the
source animal is, the longer and heavier the weight compressing the bone matrix. I'm sure you
have heard of this before when learning that broken bones in young humans and animals heal
much faster than in adults, so it's not exaggerated when I'm telling you that these center parts of
marrow bones are the hardest, most durable bones in the body.
Extremely hard bones like that wear down the teeth and can easily cause slab fractures. An
added problem with sliced, “o-shaped” marrow bones is that they can get stuck in the jaw very
easily. There are much better, safer options available, and the joint knuckles of these large bones
are a great example.
Even wild wolves and African wild dogs (two species who hunt and kill large prey animals) were
observed to only chew off the ends of these bones[1] - their teeth guarantee their survival and
broken ones put them at a disadvantage."
[1] Source: "Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health", Tom Lonsdale, DMV: pp 324 and 325

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post #2 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by davetgabby View Post
""Raw bones are the best thing you can provide for your dog's oral health, but some are more
problematic than others.
Dave, do you understand why vets are often (usually?) SO antagonistic to the idea of raw bones (or indeed a raw diet generally)? The only bone disaster I personally know of (and I realise how incredibly uninteresting anecdote is, but this one is not what most people would expect) was a Weimeraner choking on a Nylabone and very nearly dying. Yet vets, on the whole, would be far happier to recommend a Nylabone....I've given up on raw not because I disagree with it but because neither of my dogs will touch it. My first dog LOVED raw chicken wings, but these two won't even look at them. My vet goes on about the bacteria in raw and how dangerous it is....I do find it (as does Tom Lonsdale) extraordinary that vet practices are allowed to display and sell dog-food brands - how, then, are they supposed to give unbiased advice about food? In the UK (not sure about anywhere else) dog-food manufacturers target veterinary students with deals for when they graduate that would be entirely unacceptable with any (human) medical student - can you imagine doctors' surgeries displaying particular baby foods, for example! It is SO hard, as an owner just trying to do the right thing, to negotiate one's way through this labyrinth of vested interest and bias, isn't it!
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post #3 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 08:53 AM
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I agree with all info posted so far. I give Timmy raw marrow bones, they are cut into small inch or two size, he's not a major chewer so I'm not worried about possible tooth injuries. These bones are buffalo he gets one a week and when I take it away I'll scoop out the marrow which he loves.

My cat's vet sells cat food in her office and displays it also. Both my cats have urinary crystals so they are conveniently on a prescription diet that I get from her, I'm not sure about the quality but it's a major brand name. I've often thought about switching them over to something else but they are happy eating this and they are really picky. My one cat has epilepsy, and even though I think I like Timmy's vet better my cat's vet is so great with Zuzu and she knows her history, plus is two minutes away and I can board her when I need to. I did try to switch my cats over to raw a while back and they did not do well on it, throwing up and diarrhea.

Timmy is obviously on a raw diet, I use a different vet for him because my cats go to a cat only place. Timmy's vet is a holistic vet and she strongly recommends a raw diet, but also sells food too, plus a bunch of holistic remedy stuff. I agree that these companies shouldn't be able to distribute/display their food at the vet's office, but they are both businesses and bottom line is everyone wants to make a buck. I do wonder however what the kick back is for the vets that do this and it seems like most do. Tim's vet is an animal chiropractor does acupuncture, reiki, Chinese herbology, about as holistic as they come, she's never pushed any of her food products on us even when Timmy started going there as a puppy. I did hear about pet food companies romancing vet students, I guess they pay for part of their schooling after they graduate and sell their food? How about the drug companies romancing our doctors? I know that's a whole different discussion though. I'd hate to think our doctors and vets are making decisions based on companies coming in and giving them deals to push their products.

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post #4 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 10:41 AM
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I'd hate to think our doctors and vets are making decisions based on companies coming in and giving them deals to push their products.
Ugh, yes, SO agree; try reading Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Pharma' (brilliant book) if you really want your hair to curl! The whole industry built around producing low protein diets for dogs and cats with kidney problems is based on historical hearsay and zero evidence - and that'll probably start another onslaught of disagreement, but there is a mass of accumulated scientific data out there now to support what might sound like heresy. Yes, people are in business to make money, and food manufacturers, if they can get away with it, will try and influence vets to try and influence pet owners. Vets who stock these products but don't try and push them on their patients are at least making a bit of a stand, but it is still a pretty sorry situation that health professionals should be snuggled up with people who are producing products that are arguably often part of the cause of the animal being at the veterinary practice in the first place! Just having these products on display in a surgery must surely influence those people who don't actually find out that the vet him/herself wouldn't necessarily advocate that product.
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post #5 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 01:24 PM
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We gave Chester cooked steak bones, until we found out only raw is safe. Cooked bone is no harm for him but he loves both anyway.


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post #6 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lalla View Post
Dave, do you understand why vets are often (usually?) SO antagonistic to the idea of raw bones (or indeed a raw diet generally)? The only bone disaster I personally know of (and I realise how incredibly uninteresting anecdote is, but this one is not what most people would expect) was a Weimeraner choking on a Nylabone and very nearly dying. Yet vets, on the whole, would be far happier to recommend a Nylabone....I've given up on raw not because I disagree with it but because neither of my dogs will touch it. My first dog LOVED raw chicken wings, but these two won't even look at them. My vet goes on about the bacteria in raw and how dangerous it is....I do find it (as does Tom Lonsdale) extraordinary that vet practices are allowed to display and sell dog-food brands - how, then, are they supposed to give unbiased advice about food? In the UK (not sure about anywhere else) dog-food manufacturers target veterinary students with deals for when they graduate that would be entirely unacceptable with any (human) medical student - can you imagine doctors' surgeries displaying particular baby foods, for example! It is SO hard, as an owner just trying to do the right thing, to negotiate one's way through this labyrinth of vested interest and bias, isn't it!
exactly they do not study nutrition in vet school , and they can't sell raw.. .

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
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post #7 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lalla View Post
Ugh, yes, SO agree; try reading Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Pharma' (brilliant book) if you really want your hair to curl! The whole industry built around producing low protein diets for dogs and cats with kidney problems is based on historical hearsay and zero evidence - and that'll probably start another onslaught of disagreement, but there is a mass of accumulated scientific data out there now to support what might sound like heresy. Yes, people are in business to make money, and food manufacturers, if they can get away with it, will try and influence vets to try and influence pet owners. Vets who stock these products but don't try and push them on their patients are at least making a bit of a stand, but it is still a pretty sorry situation that health professionals should be snuggled up with people who are producing products that are arguably often part of the cause of the animal being at the veterinary practice in the first place! Just having these products on display in a surgery must surely influence those people who don't actually find out that the vet him/herself wouldn't necessarily advocate that product.
JUST to show how we're getting led astray by organizations that are influenced by the large dog food companies. here's an article http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites...cial-food.aspx I have no respect for ACVN when they consistently sell their sponsors crappy foods.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild

Last edited by davetgabby; 08-26-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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post #8 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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when you look at the two major vet nutritionist orgs. American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition and the American College of Veterinary Nutrition , They both are in the pocket of the pet food industry. Heck, if you look at the websites of the organizations, you'll see they are *sponsored* by the industry

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild

Last edited by davetgabby; 08-26-2013 at 06:30 PM.
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post #9 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 06:55 PM
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exactly they do not study nutrition in vet school , and they can't sell raw.. .
<warning: rant!>

Don't settle for that kind of vet. There are any alternatives. (and there are more and more all the time) Both Missy (Jasper and Cash) and I travel a long way for our vet. She is part of a holistic veterinary practice. While they do sell food in the front office, it is a relatively good one, (Wellness) and they CERTAINLY don't push it on people. I've never even had them mention it to me, even when we've been discussing nutrition. There are people who like having the convenience of being able to pick it up at the vet's office.

Even when she has suggested supplements to me, she has told me that although they carry (some of) them, that you can also get them on line for less money. I see no problem with them charging a "convenience fee" for people who would rather not deal with ordering on-line. In the quantities they order, I'm sure they don't pay much less than retail for these products.

I haven't discussed raw with my vet, because I have my own reasons not to want to use it. (and I know Missy feeds raw) But I HAVE discussed home cooking, and complete DIY vs. using a product like Balance-IT as a base. She was COMPLETELY open to both options, also giving me the names of several other companies that supply base nutrient mix-ins for people who want to step up from manufactured dog food but are not ready to plunge into doing it all from scratch.

I know there are bad vets out there, and there are uneducated vets out there. But I think it's wrong to tar them all with the same brush. I work as an educational advocate for children with special needs. I am ALWAYS sitting on "the other side of the table" from school personnel. I find myself frequently reminding parents that few educators go into the profession with the goal of torturing children. There are some bad teachers, but there are an awful lot of good ones trying to do good work within a flawed system.

Veterinary medicine (and don't get me started on human medicine!) is similar. there are good vets and bad vets, and MOST fall somewhere in between. Support the best ones, and vote on the bad ones with your feet.


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post #10 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 07:00 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with all info posted so far. I give Timmy raw marrow bones, they are cut into small inch or two size, he's not a major chewer so I'm not worried about possible tooth injuries. These bones are buffalo he gets one a week and when I take it away I'll scoop out the marrow which he loves.

My cat's vet sells cat food in her office and displays it also. Both my cats have urinary crystals so they are conveniently on a prescription diet that I get from her, I'm not sure about the quality but it's a major brand name. I've often thought about switching them over to something else but they are happy eating this and they are really picky. My one cat has epilepsy, and even though I think I like Timmy's vet better my cat's vet is so great with Zuzu and she knows her history, plus is two minutes away and I can board her when I need to. I did try to switch my cats over to raw a while back and they did not do well on it, throwing up and diarrhea.

Timmy is obviously on a raw diet, I use a different vet for him because my cats go to a cat only place. Timmy's vet is a holistic vet and she strongly recommends a raw diet, but also sells food too, plus a bunch of holistic remedy stuff. I agree that these companies shouldn't be able to distribute/display their food at the vet's office, but they are both businesses and bottom line is everyone wants to make a buck. I do wonder however what the kick back is for the vets that do this and it seems like most do. Tim's vet is an animal chiropractor does acupuncture, reiki, Chinese herbology, about as holistic as they come, she's never pushed any of her food products on us even when Timmy started going there as a puppy. I did hear about pet food companies romancing vet students, I guess they pay for part of their schooling after they graduate and sell their food? How about the drug companies romancing our doctors? I know that's a whole different discussion though. I'd hate to think our doctors and vets are making decisions based on companies coming in and giving them deals to push their products.
yep

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Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
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