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post #1 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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Protein in dogs' foods

I know there must be a thread about this somewhere already, but I just can't find it. lol

Check this out: http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

What is it about a high protein diet that has some people worried? If there are no kidney/liver issues, it is recommended a dog get lots of protein compared to lots of carbs. Their digestive system is not meant to handle carbs such as grains, flours and corn. They become fillers that can cause painful gas, over eating, skin and hair problems and maybe allergies. They wont' cause kidney problems. I just read that senior dogs do much better on no-grain foods.

What I did discover this past week, though, is that the fear of a high protein diet is that the ash content will be too high. If that's the case, it CAN be harmful. Ash is high depending on what type of protein is used. If they grind up too much bone, there will be a higher level of phosphorous and calcium and THAT in turn, can increase ash levels. If there is no bone used, such as in Orijen, then the ash levels are very low so there are no problems.

No, I don't work for Orijen! lol I just happened to read this in the past few days and I thought how much it makes sense.

Carbs, on the other hand, just don't give any nutritional benefit to dogs; puppy, seniors or otherwise. Some isn't a huge problem, but too much and it turns into sugar which then turns into fat. Sure, some can do fine on grains their whole lives. It's different for different dogs, breeds and age groups. I think it's individual, but I do prefer a higher protein diet. 30-40%.

I am looking into the food "Horizon". Does anyone here use it, or know of it? I'm wondering if I should try it out as it is made in Sask. and of great quality, just that they don't use all fresh ingdts. as Orijen does. Most companies don't use fresh, and use frozen which is still fine.

I found this: "Kirk's Veterinary Therapy XIII, Small Animal Practice, page 861, written by Finco, Brown, Barsanti and Bartges "...restriction of protein intake does not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal function. Considering these (research) findings, the authors do not recommend reduction of dietary protein in dogs with renal disease or reduced renal function in order to achieve renoprotective effects." They do recommend, though, that once a Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) level reaches 75, which is very elevated, that some restriction of protein intake be considered for beneficial effects unrelated to kidney function dynamics. These authors point out that Phosphorus blood levels can play a major role in the health status of dogs with compromised kidney function."

Interesting!

I'd like to hear what others think.




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post #2 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 02:50 PM
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I will be interested in everyone's opinion. It seems this remains a controversy because there is not a definitive opinion according to the research done. You will find both sides site research. I know Sadie's breeder was very much against high protein according to the prevailing opinion in the Havanese club she belongs to.

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post #3 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 02:52 PM
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Marj - I just am not one to be able to feed raw, so I agree that a higher protein is better unless there are liver or kidney issues. I've had a lot of luck with sweet potatoes as the carbohydrate as opposed to other kinds.


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post #4 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 03:00 PM
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I think it really depends on the dog. I know that Jasper has more energy and acts more like a dog when I add some carbs (potato and greenbeans) to his high protein diet. (I use NV medallions) But Cash on the other hand eats his poo if I add anything to his high protein meals. I have recently been experimenting with the Ziwi Peak, which seems like a great food but really expensive-- I have been mixing just a bit into their cooked medallions to try to even out the nurtrition I cook away when I cook them.

But, When ever get crazy over if what I am feeding them is the best-- I Just remember that there are plenty of Happy, Healthy, Old dogs that have lived on Dog Chow and table scraps. Someone please remind that next time I go all Crazy again.




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post #5 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 03:25 PM
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My dogs have always preferred protein to carbs. My big dogs used to love veggies, but Kodi and Shelby will not eat them. My two love their protein and I just cooked them a bunch of chicken thighs. They get Fromm's either chicken or salmon kibble and EVO Red Meat kibble.


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post #6 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 05:58 PM
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Actually I do think that for the most part it is definitive from all the research done. The original testing was always done with protein from plant sources and not meat. The only ones really recommending a carb diet are vets who get their training from .... Hills and such, those who really don't want to increase the amount of quality meat and therefore lower their profits. It's amazing how much fear they put into pet owners.

As long as the ash level is not too high, as Marj indicated. Then really you are much better off.
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post #7 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 07:47 PM
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does anyone know what is considered a high ash level--- or what is a good ash level?




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post #8 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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I agree that it depends on the dog, but for the most part, we all pretty much know that raw is up there as likely the best thing - I know there are exceptions - but I just found out that one canine nutrition expert here in Montreal thinks canned is next best and THEN it's kibble. I didn't expect to hear that today, but I have read something similar in the past. Interesting.

I had to go to the store I work at today, and chatted almost an hour with the owner, Steve. It was very cool to find out that he and his wife have also been big in researching this ash/protein thing these past few days and we've all been checking backs of cans and of kibble bags. They met with a rep. from Orijen, from Alberta, and continue to be very impressed with their quality of food and preparation. They are firm believers that, so far, they are the best. Of course, that is a personal opinion, but based on a ton of research, debating with the company and experience. It's not the right food for all dogs as no one dog food is. Too bad, or it would be so much easier for US!

Anyway, here's more on calculating protein content in dry and in canned foods. I had no idea!

http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=662

Fascinating!! Takes more math skills though. lol




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post #9 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
does anyone know what is considered a high ash level--- or what is a good ash level?
You know, Missy. I've spent a lot of time on here trying to get a straight answer to that question, but it seems like anything higher than 10% is too high. Ideal levels are 6-7% from what I gathered.

"Ash level
Ash is essentially what is left over if the food is burned in an incinerator. It is largely comprised of minerals, especially potassium and phosphorus, with smaller amounts of calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium and zinc. High ash levels indicate a high mineral content; high phosphorus levels are especially damaging to dogs with kidney disease (but will not harm the kidneys of a health dog)."


Unfortunately, most companies do not include ash on their ingdts. list so have no numbers to show you. It's hard to figure out, but if they use a lot of bone along with the meat (and cook all this, not for raw), chances are the numbers are a little on the high side.




Hello. My name is marj and I have MHS.




"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi

“Come to the edge, he said. They said: We are afraid. Come to the edge, he said. They came. He pushed them and they flew.” -Guillaume Apollinaire"
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post #10 of 63 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 07:54 PM
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I posted this in another thread-- but Oprah's vet also thinks quality canned is better than dry.

http://www.drmarty.com/feeding.htm




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