CUBA'S SECOND SEASON DIARY - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-11-2014, 09:54 AM Thread Starter
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CUBA'S SECOND SEASON DIARY

Anyone up for another x-certificate thread? I thought it might just be interesting to compare Cuba's first season with the second? It might end up being so repetitious and boring that I'll give up on it, but thought to make a start just in case it is wildly different and therefore perhaps useful in some way?

NOT that it's started yet.

The first began on January 23rd, and ended on February 12th; so we are now roughly 6 months since then; according to my season bible, The Book of the Bitch, the average inter-oestrous period lasts seven months, but "periods of between five to 10 months are considered normal." Interestingly, the cycle period in German Shepherd dogs is significantly shorter (four to four and a half - I wonder why?), and African breeds such as the Basenji are said to cycle only once a year but this is beginning to change after years of domestication. More frequent heats can be associated with infertility. One of the signs that problems were brewing with my first Coton de Tulear, Pamba, was that she had her second season only three months after her first, and then a third about four months after that....not good.

So, just in case anyone is interested who doesn't know a million times more about all of this than I do (forgive me, all breeders out there, I know you are far more knowledgeable - this is the layman's take on the subject, and PLEASE put me right if I'm barking up wrong trees...), here are the oestrous cycle phases:

a) Pro-oestrus: lasts on average 9 days (range 2 to 27 days). This is the beginning of heat. The vulva swells and there is bleeding. The bitch is attractive to dogs but won't let them mate with her.
b) Oestrus: lasts on average 9 days (range 3 to 21 days). This stage is when the bitch will allow males to mate with her. The vulva is much enlarged. The discharge is straw-coloured rather than red. Ovulation occurs spontaneously, usually about 2 days after the start of oestrus.
c) Met-oestrus: lasts an average of 90 days. This stage occurs in the un-mated bitch where hormones equivalent to pregnancy are present that may result in signs of false pregnancy.
d) Anoestrus: this varies, but is, on average 75 days. This is the bit between cycles, a period of sexual inactivity. The duration of anoestrus usually determines how frequently the bitch will come into season.

So I am on the look out for any changes, and imagine that my best indicator will be Tycho's behaviour (he's my neutered Coton de Tulear, for anyone out there unfamiliar with his escapades last time around!) towards Cuba, and hers towards him. I don't expect much to happen for a bit, but you never know, so I'll start checking for any discharge - easy, a quick white-tissue wipe every day should show up any colour changes - and keep anyone posted who's interested.

Meantime, just to add that Cuba showed no signs of any false pregnancy which, had it been going to occur, would have done so in the three months or so after her season ended, in other words mid February to mid May.

Last edited by Lalla; 08-31-2014 at 05:51 AM.
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-11-2014, 01:08 PM
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are you planning on breeding?


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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-11-2014, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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are you planning on breeding?
No, I'm not, Karen. I've been around the houses checking out all the latest science thinking on when to neuter and, after much debate with myself and others (some of it here on this forum) decided to let Cuba have two seasons before considering a laparoscopic spay. Then there was a bit of research I read suggesting that bitches who are not spayed until after their sixth birthday live the longest...I'm still trying to get to grips with that one and see what others think of it but mostly people (including vets) don't read the literature. I think it's only one bit of data, which doesn't entirely convince me. There is a lot of argument in favour of letting an animal reach complete adulthood before neutering, so that's where I've been headed. Obviously for those who have a very difficult time of it, where seasons are hard to manage, then there are other considerations, but if you glance at a previous thread, "Cuba's First Season Diary" you'll see that I really didn't have any problems. It's possible that it will all be more difficult this time, I don't know yet, hence Part Two of what became known as the 'x-rated thread'!!
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-11-2014, 02:19 PM
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Oh! Cool! I will read your previous thread. I totally agree with you on waiting to spay. Just so long as you are responsible when she is in season and it sounds like you are, it really is better for the bitch. I use cute little potty panties for toy dogs and line with a panty liner to keep mine from messing up the house and furniture. Seasons are just not a big deal. Unless you have intact males in the house! Then of course, its a whole different ballgame.

Thanks for posting this for other pet owners. Vets have trained everyone to spay spay spay. Not because its whats best for the bitch, but to control population.

From the first sign of blood till 30 days past that, I keep my girls under close watch. My Dance has an unusually long cycle and ovulates around day 19. But the little hussie will breed from day 10 - day 30!!! Don't know if all Havs or toys do this. She's our first Hav. I've only bred larger dogs in the past. Most all had 21 day cycles with ovulation between day 10-13. Dance also goes almost 1 yr between cycles.

Oh, one final thought. I have a 9 yr old Tibetan Terrier that had her last litter at age 5 and I had her spayed at age 8. She is healthy and happy! I expect her to live past 15 which is the max age her ancestors have lived. But I also haven't vaccinated her since her puppy shots. She's my little experiment in healthy living.

Sorry to highjack your thread chasing bunnies!


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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-11-2014, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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Oh! Cool! I will read your previous thread. I totally agree with you on waiting to spay. Just so long as you are responsible when she is in season and it sounds like you are, it really is better for the bitch. I use cute little potty panties for toy dogs and line with a panty liner to keep mine from messing up the house and furniture. Seasons are just not a big deal. Unless you have intact males in the house! Then of course, its a whole different ballgame.

Thanks for posting this for other pet owners. Vets have trained everyone to spay spay spay. Not because its whats best for the bitch, but to control population.

From the first sign of blood till 30 days past that, I keep my girls under close watch. My Dance has an unusually long cycle and ovulates around day 19. But the little hussie will breed from day 10 - day 30!!! Don't know if all Havs or toys do this. She's our first Hav. I've only bred larger dogs in the past. Most all had 21 day cycles with ovulation between day 10-13. Dance also goes almost 1 yr between cycles.

Oh, one final thought. I have a 9 yr old Tibetan Terrier that had her last litter at age 5 and I had her spayed at age 8. She is healthy and happy! I expect her to live past 15 which is the max age her ancestors have lived. But I also haven't vaccinated her since her puppy shots. She's my little experiment in healthy living.

Sorry to highjack your thread chasing bunnies!
I don't remotely feel hijacked! All contributions welcome! I hope, when you've read the previous thread, you think that I was responsible enough to go a second round; I'm probably boringly responsible! Cuba was never once alone in the garden during her first season - we have few dogs in our central Oxford area, high walls, gates and an internal fence so that even if the gates are opened the dogs can't get near them - a sort of double insurance. But I'm super careful, and realise that a determined suitor could pretty easily scale a high wall....nothing did happen, but I'm not going to give up on the vigilance.
Vets in this country (UK) are very keen on spaying, driven largely, as I understand it, by rescue centres and policy there. Which is understandable. But it doesn't mean that responsible pet owners should be treated the same way and the lazy lumping of us all together annoys me - the health of our pets is what matters. My vet was not particularly in favour of laparoscopic spaying either until he went to a conference and listened to a surgeon extolling the virtues of such procedures. I'd done all that research already and had already told him what I'd discovered, but hey, it takes another professional to do the persuading! It's more expensive here, but I'd rather save up and forgo something for me if it made my precious dog suffer less. So that's the plan, when the time comes. Although I'm still not convinced yet as to when that time will be. I do clearly understand the risks involved in not spaying - I've looked hard at the statistics. But there are risks on both sides and in the end you can only make the best educated decision possible and understand that there will always be factors that you can't foresee. You can only do your best with the information that's out there.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 08:07 AM
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I'm reading with interest in case I end up with a girl in the future!


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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
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I'm reading with interest in case I end up with a girl in the future!
Hullo, Karen! Well, nothing to report yet, but I do recommend the girls! Cuba is such a little dear, very different from my boy Coton and very different from my previous (girl) Coton, so her own thing entirely. But I think they are all such individuals, our dogs.

I'll post again as soon as there's some indication that there might be something to report! Meantime, I hope your boy is thriving.
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-23-2014, 11:38 AM Thread Starter
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A not very interesting update: I was, it would appear, jumping the gun. So far so nothing. Well, perhaps a bit more licking but I don't think significantly so. I suppose the waiting and wondering is part of the diary anyway, but it's not very exciting to say I'm waiting and wondering! Tycho seems to be taking marginally more interest in her, but it's a pretty small margin.

So bear with me, anyone following this, sorry not to have waited a bit longer. Season Two (it sounds like a DVD boxed set, doesn't it!) must be due fairly soon, but I suppose could be a while yet. Or not....I'll check in soon.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 09:24 AM
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Cuba's 1st season has helped a lot of people that I referred over to your postings. Keep it up. I'm sure 2nd season will be informative too.
Hope the international quilt show was wonderful with lots of great entries, ideas and booths for picking up more supplies
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 11:21 AM
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Hi how many months ago was her first season? Mine have been like clock work every six months. And they like to come into season together. Zoey who is three mo younger started first and maddie was about a week later. Zoey was 6 mo old and Maddie 9 mo old. The only thing I don't like is they seem to mark. I don't know if this is because I have two? The place they like to leave a piddle is on my bed. and a couple of times on my old couch. I have learned to add thick layers of sheets during that time. The worst thing that happened to me was at my sisters house. She has a neutered American Eskimo. We were all out in her yard when I heard Maddie crying. Well she was being dragged across the lawn by Carter. We didn't know what to do and did the worst thing by just pulling him off her. I latter learned that you wait or use water? Any way Neutered males still have interest and can engage. The next season I watched him like a hawk. I think he remembered his first love not to be so great..

Maddie at 5mo old
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