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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-30-2011, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
Joe Cool!
 
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A silly Video

You have to listen to the owner's commentary.


TTFN,
Pam

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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-30-2011, 07:21 PM
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Hahaha very funy...thanks for sharing
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-30-2011, 07:30 PM
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omg that is just sooo funny! That poor dog looks so guilty. The eyes say it all!

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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-30-2011, 09:27 PM
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probably staged, the dog isn't really feeling guilt, as they aren't capable of this., He is reacting to his owners's body language. These things are becoming a tradition on the net. Some of them are downright cruel. This reminded my of an article by a friend from Ireland. I spoke with her today as I found out her dog died. Very sad , it made me cry , as I think of her as a mentor when it comes to dogs. But here is her take on this topic of guilt.
Pups and dogs are completely incapable of making a link between something they did a few seconds/minutes/hours ago, and why you’re annoyed now. Picture the scene: pup is left alone in the kitchen. He needs to go to the toilet, so he squats and pees on the floor. A minute later, his owner comes in, sees the pee, scowls at the pup, then puts him out in the garden alone for half an hour. We might think that this is teaching the pup a good lesson, but let’s look at what’s actually happening.

Pup feels the need to pee. So he pees. Nothing wrong with that, we all do it! Owner walks back into room, and seems annoyed. In fact, they have “that” face on that means pup is going to get pegged out into the garden. Pup hates being left alone in the garden, and starts to act submissively, trying to appease the owner. Owner points at puddle on floor. Pup has no idea why. He neither speaks English, or is capable of making the connection between the puddle and himself. Pup bows his head some more, looking doleful, sad and… GUILTY! “Aha!” says the owner, “he KNOWS he’s done wrong!” No, he doesn’t. What you’re looking at is canine appeasement signals. He is trying to calm you down, but remember that he has NO IDEA WHY YOU’RE ANGRY IN THE FIRST PLACE! If you don’t believe me, try this: walk into the room, and find your pup doing something “good”. Stride over to him and talk to him in a scolding voice. Watch those same signals appear: lip-licking, ears down, head bowed, even turning over to show you his tummy. It is clear that the pup is not feeling guilt. Why should he feel guilty for doing something good? No, I’m afraid that it’s time we accepted that dogs cannot feel guilt. That seems to be a purely human emotion! And we are horribly mistaken if we think that our scolding the pup is teaching him anything other than to be a bit frightened of us sometimes, especially when we have “that” face on!
And for the research article http://www.livescience.com/animals/0...ilty-dogs.html and another linked article
In his 1996 book Good Natured, ethologist Frans de Waal discusses an experiment on guilt and reprimands conducted on a female Siberian husky. The dog had the habit of shredding newspapers, and when her owner returned home to find the shredded papers and scold her she would act guilty. However, when the owner himself shredded the papers without the dog's knowledge, the dog "acted just as 'guilty' as when she herself had created the mess." De Waal concludes that the "guilt" displayed by dogs is not true guilt but rather the anticipation of the behavior of an angry superior in a given situation.[3]

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Last edited by davetgabby; 09-30-2011 at 09:41 PM.
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-01-2011, 09:53 PM
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My Boo Boo always acts guilty even though he is not at fault. A raised voice, one of the other dogs being scolded he looks guilty. The truth is he just is reacting to the charged environment....or I could say he is sensitive.

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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-02-2011, 11:28 AM Thread Starter
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I have had dogs who acted guilty before we discovered that there was anything wrong.

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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-02-2011, 03:19 PM
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It would be interesting to know what they do "feel." I try not to anthropomorphize, but I swear Libby pouts and is passive aggressive. I have a hard time explaining any other way why she won't come to get out of the ex pen if I've left her or why, if I do tricks with Baxter before I do them with her, she turns her back on us and refuses to join in.
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-02-2011, 07:49 PM
Dave T
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morriscsps View Post
I have had dogs who acted guilty before we discovered that there was anything wrong.
yeah Pam , this is where linking occurs. Here is a reply I recieved to my post on the IAABC forum. Rise is a human psychologist that happens to be a dog trainer as well. She is amazing in her writings, and here is her letter to my question on "guilt " in dogs.

"While I think it's pretty clear from the research as well as dog
lovers' experiences that dogs have associations that are remembered, to say that
dogs have guilt is quite another thing. I agree with the thrust of an
earlier post that in order for a dog to feel guilt, it would have to be able to
internalize HUMAN beliefs about right and wrong and have a rather
sophisticated sense of morality. While Bekoff and others are showing that dogs do
have a moral code with each other and from a doggie point of view, I've not
seen anything that suggests that they can learn to adopt OUR moral codes
of right and wrong. They do build these associations with all kinds of
minute environmental cues, including our facial expressions, tone of voice, and
similar environments to prior situations where they were in trouble (as
noted in other posts). I might add that the "wait until your father gets
home" approach to discipline does not work well with children either, unless
you are trying to build anxiety problems in your child. Then it's all about
the anxiety and avoiding punishment and not about learning to stop the bad
behavior anyway. (Avoidance of punishment is one of the lowest levels of
moral development in humans and does not indicate true learning). I think
the same is true of dogs, but they have less capacity to hold such
behaviors in their heads until punishment is doled out. Dogs have memories and
anticipation, but mostly they live in the present (one of their great
beauties!).

We really don't need to punish dogs for these things - we either need to
manage the situation (don't leave the steak on the edge of the counter) or
teach an effective leave-it, even in the absence of human supervision. The
focus really needs to be on the alternative behavior we want under certain
circumstances.

As for the video clip of Denver the "guilty dog" - this has been under
discussion in several online dog training/behaviorist groups, and I think most
will agree that those dogs are throwing off stress signals like crazy. The
"grin" is actually a submissive gesture that shows high levels of anxiety
- I worked in rescue with a dog who did exactly this when he first came to
rescue. He was inaccurately named "Happy" for his grin, but he was
extremely fearful of human approach. A few weeks in rescue, and he looked like a
different dog - truly happy but without his fearful grin anymore. I
actually downloaded the guilty dog Youtube clip to show to my next
animal-assisted play therapy training group - for use as an exercise in recognizing
stress signals! (This video has gone viral because these are the behaviors
that most people think are guilt!) I'm still not sure why it's "cute" or
"funny" to make dogs feel this way deliberately. I can certainly cause these
reactions in my dogs with my tone of voice when they have done absolutely
nothing wrong, but I don't because I don't want to stress my dogs. We have
lots more education of the public to do!!"


Risė


"Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand." --Mark Twain
"Life is too important to be taken seriously." --Oscar Wilde
Risė VanFleet, Ph.D., President
Family Enhancement & Play Therapy Center, Inc.
PO Box 613, Boiling Springs, PA 17007 USA
717-249-4707
_www.play-therapy.com_ (http://www.play-therapy.com/)

Director
Playful Pooch Program
Canine Assisted Play Therapy
_www.playfulpooch.org_ (http://www.playfulpooch.org/)

Licensed Psychologist (PA)
Registered Play Therapist-Supervisor (APT)
Certified Filial Therapist-Instructor (NIRE)
Canine Good Citizen Evaluator (AKC-CGC)
Certified Dog Behavior Consultant (IAABC)

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
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