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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-13-2010, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
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Choosing Between Pedigrees

I have vast knowledge in horses pedigrees of the breeds I have bred and shown and I know some pedigrees in the horse world make a huge difference when selecting pedigreed show stock. I am a novice at this when it comes to Havanese so I would be delighted for some help with the pedigrees behind the dogs I am choosing from. I am not purchasing a young puppy but choosing a bitch either a year old or a year and a half. Both are sired by the same father as my current dog who is below...

CH Amor Hycrest Fade To Black
(CH Los Companero's V Havaluv x Tapscott's Isadorable)

31 best of breeds
45 best puppy in breeds
12 group placements including 3 group firsts
12 puppy groups
1 puppy show
Was in the Top 10 in Canada in 2008

Dam # 1 has placed Winners Bitch and Best Puppy at the First Canadian Havanese Nationals
(CH Jesperson's Don Quixote x CH Twins Hycrest Dominique)

Dam # 2, in 2006...Best Puppy in the Canadian National Havanese Specialty for 2006, Multi Group winning, Multi Puppy In Show Winning, Multi Puppy In Specialty Winning. One of the top winning Havanese puppies in the History of the breed!!!
(CH Jesperson's Don Quixote x Hycrest Shelgrande Evita)

The horse breeder in me would be looking at extended pedigrees to trace the female tail lines as that is the only variance in the pedigrees. I also lean towards bitch # 2 due to her show record but she may have been campaigned more. Are there any breeders familiar with these lines that would have insight as to the good and the bad of any of these pedigrees that I should be aware of before I decide on my new dog, particularly health issues and temperament?

Both choices already have points but need to be finished. My goal is to choose the best dog for me, pet first, show dog second with hopes of selecting the best gene pool should I choose to breed in future. I have been looking since May 2009 for my new dog but it's near impossible to learn anything concrete about pedigrees in such a short period of time no matter how much research one does and there is so much knowledge on this forum, I am hoping for input.


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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-13-2010, 10:55 PM
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I am slightly familiar with the sire's side. The dam of my foundation bitch is also Tapscott's Isadorable. I don't know enough about the either bitch's side to comment, and to be honest, I don't know that you'll get any comments posted publicly anyway.

It may be a bit different in dogs, but I'd highly recommend that you not look at the wins so much as you look at the individual traits that each parent has had to offer. Look up Buddy & Issie and see if you can find out what their outstanding qualities are and what their faults are. They both came from the same kennel (not born in the same kennel, but the same breeder owned them), so see if you can get some information from the breeder, who knows her dogs very well. (She's busy, but she may be of good guidance for you.) Every dog has faults, so you just want to ensure you're not going to double up on something that is critical to breed away from. Likewise, check both parents of each bitch.

Conformation, temperament and health are all very important. Wins are nice and will often give credit to a dog with good conformation, but by one of your remarks, it sounds like you understand how campaigning a dog can really bring their name to the forefront. (I'm talking in general - not about any of these specific dogs listed.)

With dogs, you'll probably want to check the health pedigrees more than the wins. Go to OFFA.org with the registered names and see what you can find in the parents, grandparents, and siblings especially. If you find something you don't understand, ask questions. Hey, if you find a hole in the health testing, you can ask too.

By the way, some of the long-time breeders will occasionally talk about female tail lines, but I think most of the current thinking is that it doesn't seem to prove much in dogs. In fact, I think the only time I hear it mentioned in dogs is when the breeder has come from horses.

Best wishes!

Last edited by Havtahava; 02-14-2010 at 12:40 AM. Reason: forgot a word; added clarification
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 12:10 AM Thread Starter
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I am slightly familiar with the sire's side. The dam of my foundation bitch is also Tapscott's Isadorable. I don't know enough about the either bitch's side to comment, and to be honest, I don't know that you'll get any comments posted publicly anyway.

It may be a bit different in dogs, but I'd highly recommend that you not look at the wins so much as you look at the individual traits that each parent has had to offer. Look up Buddy & Issie and see if you can find out what their outstanding qualities are and what their faults are. They both came from the same kennel, so see if you can get some information from the breeder, who knows her dogs very well. (She's busy, but she may be of good guidance for you.) Every dog has faults, so you just want to ensure you're not going to double up on something that is critical to breed away from. Likewise, check both parents of each bitch.

Conformation, temperament and health are all very important. Wins are nice and will often give credit to a dog with good conformation, but by one of your remarks, it sounds like you understand how campaigning a dog can really bring their name to the forefront. (I'm talking in general - not about any of these specific dogs listed.)

With dogs, you'll probably want to check the health pedigrees more than the wins. Go to OFFA.org with the registered names and see what you can find in the parents, grandparents, and siblings especially. If you find something you don't understand, ask questions. Hey, if you find a hole in the health testing, you can ask too.

By the way, some of the long-time breeders will occasionally talk about female tail lines, but I think most of the current thinking is that it doesn't seem to prove much in dogs. In fact, I think the only time I hear it mentioned in dogs is when the breeder has come from horses.

Best wishes!
Ty for your good advise. I find it fascinating that there is such a difference between the equine and the dog world in the way pedigrees are looked at for breeding prospects. I have always believed the female tail line genetically has a lot of importance...perhaps old school train of thought but I hold it dear. Not 100% sure I even want to ever breed dogs but I am here to learn from those who do everything I can. Equines I deal with are all DNA'd for genetics and once the canines follow I think it will become even more interesting. I completely agree conformation, health and disposition should be huge priorities.


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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 10:45 AM
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What horses did you breed-Arabs maybe? We used to breed GOV and Connemara until we got to the point that we had too many that we wanted to keep for ourselves and didn't want to risk having another baby that we had to keep.

We may be the only Hav breeder whose line is based on a tail female line but you can't base a tail female line on going all the way back since all the original dogs have been mixed so much. Problems have branched off in a number of different directions and you really have to invest in one for a while until you know what you produce. Very few are willing to do that.

With regard to DNA research now in dogs relative to horses, actually there is a lot more going on with dogs. The whole canine genome has now been mapped and they know what is where. Most of the testing has not been done specifically for the benefit of dogs, but it's a really good model to use for comparison to human genetic deseases and all the canine research is bringing unsuspecting surprises to the dog world.

There are currently tests in this breed for "shorthair", different coat types, and the location for the CD genes is known. There are all sorts of new genetic tests coming up every week now and different breeds have developed genetic tests (such as different eye disorders) that identify carriers for a number of problems that they have. It's really an exiting time for those that believe in genetic testing.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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What horses did you breed-Arabs maybe? We used to breed GOV and Connemara until we got to the point that we had too many that we wanted to keep for ourselves and didn't want to risk having another baby that we had to keep.

We may be the only Hav breeder whose line is based on a tail female line but you can't base a tail female line on going all the way back since all the original dogs have been mixed so much. Problems have branched off in a number of different directions and you really have to invest in one for a while until you know what you produce. Very few are willing to do that.

With regard to DNA research now in dogs relative to horses, actually there is a lot more going on with dogs. The whole canine genome has now been mapped and they know what is where. Most of the testing has not been done specifically for the benefit of dogs, but it's a really good model to use for comparison to human genetic deseases and all the canine research is bringing unsuspecting surprises to the dog world.

There are currently tests in this breed for "shorthair", different coat types, and the location for the CD genes is known. There are all sorts of new genetic tests coming up every week now and different breeds have developed genetic tests (such as different eye disorders) that identify carriers for a number of problems that they have. It's really an exiting time for those that believe in genetic testing.
Actually, good guess, yes I have Arabians since 1969 (Crabbet lineage) and Welsh Mountain Ponies since 1984. Have taken many breaks from breeding the horses sometimes for ten years or more which one can't do with animals of shorter lovegevity. TY for your informative post.

DEB


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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 01:39 PM
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We have one Arab mare. We bought her to breed to a German Oldenburg and when we carried her to her first Inspection with a Colt at her side, she was one of the few Arabs in the U.S accepted into their books at that time.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 01:58 PM
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A little off thread. I haven't seen anything about mapping CD genes published in the typical pubmed sources. I have an interest in dog genetics, as I was involved in the cloning of the dog narcolepsy gene, for which the first dog genomic library was constructed. I'd love it if you can send me info on which loci were mapped for cd, or what genetics have been done toward that in the Hav.



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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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You might also consider the success of the puppies these parents have produced. Just as in humans, a fabulously gorgeous dog can produce mediocre puppies.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 04:14 PM
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Phoebs, PM sent.
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