Measuring length of the muzzle/scull? - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
Ask A Breeder Have questions about a breeder or what a breeder should do? Questions about what to look for in a breeder? This is a great area to ask.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-06-2013, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
Sena
 
El Bueno Habanero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 372
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
Measuring length of the muzzle/scull?

Have been thinking about this for a long time. Hope someone can help me answer this question
The FCI standard says: 'The length of the muzzle (tip of nose to stop) is equal to the distance between the stop and the occipital protuberance.'
And AKC: 'Length of muzzle is slightly less than length of back skull measured from stop to point of occiput and the planes are level.'

Here a picture of a dogs scull and the text that defines the stop.
'The 'stop' is an area between the muzzle and frontal bones which surround the eyes. So the 'stop' is the indented area between the eyes rather than a single point.'

At what points exactly do you then measure the length of the muzzle /or the length of the back skull?
E.g. muzzle: from beginning of the nose to the lowest point of the stop (the point on the picture just below the eyes?) Or do you measure all the way up the stop where the stop meets the scull?
In other words, which point of the stop is used to measure length of the muzzle and of the scull? Because as explained the stop doesn't have a single point, but it's rather a longer area.
I hope you can all follow me lol, I find it difficult to explain.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Stop.jpg (8.5 KB, 86 views)

El Bueno Habanero is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-06-2013, 09:50 AM
Senior Member
 
Tom King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lake Gaston, N.C.
Posts: 3,096
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 21 Times in 21 Posts
I've never seen equal. The stop is where the slope first starts to change. Backskull is measured from stop to occiput(little bump at top, back of skull).

Standards have been changed according to whomever is in charge of such, and what they are breeding, or want to breed.

The Cubans, not wanting to have anything written down in a country where things like saxophones were outlawed, came up with a way to measure proportions using their fingers so they could evaluate breeding dogs and keep their consistency. They would lay three fingers on the top of the muzzle, and then want four across the back skull, for the 3:4 ratio. It makes it really quick and easy to do. Some color combinations don't allow you to easily see it.

When the parent club was discussing the first Standard to present to AKC, some very strongly protested anything so specific in these proportions. That's when the comprimise of "slightly shorter" came up. I was there. Of course, we have seen slightly shorter become half in some cases, and it does quite well in the Toy ring.

As the muzzle gets shorter, the eyes become rounder.
Tom King is offline  
post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-06-2013, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
Sena
 
El Bueno Habanero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 372
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom King View Post
I've never seen equal.
I don't know if they're exactly equal, didn't measure them , but I've seen enough havs here in the Netherlands with very long, horse like muzzles. Some breeders want a long muzzles (one that FCI standard calls for), others prefer a slightly shorter muzzle. What's in the standard lol. Very subjective interpretations on various things not only muzzle.

I'm sure you know this one, but I thought it is an interesting article for someone who wants to see all the differences between the various standards, compared side by side.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...44770516,d.ZWU
Opens in a pdf file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom King View Post
The stop is where the slope first starts to change. Backskull is measured from stop to occiput(little bump at top, back of skull).
The point where the stop begins to go up vertically? If I understand it correct?
So, that would be the point where you measure? It is very low placed then. How do you measure the scall? Do you measure at the side of the head (from stop to occiput of course) or do you follow the rounding of the scull from stop all the way back to the occiput? Hope it makes sence .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom King View Post
Standards have been changed according to whomever is in charge of such, and what they are breeding, or want to breed.
Yep, it seems that's how it works anyway.


Last edited by El Bueno Habanero; 04-06-2013 at 10:48 AM.
El Bueno Habanero is offline  
 
post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-06-2013, 10:53 AM
Senior Member
 
Tom King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lake Gaston, N.C.
Posts: 3,096
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 21 Times in 21 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Bueno Habanero View Post
I don't know if they're exactly equal, didn't measure them , but I've seen enough havs here in the Netherlands with very long, horse like muzzles. Some breeders want a long muzzles (one that FCI standard calls for), others prefer a slightly shorter muzzle. What's in the standard lol. Very subjective interpretations on various things not only muzzle.

I'm sure you know this one, but I thought it is an interesting article for someone who wants to see all the differences between the various standards, compared side by side.

The American Standard has changed a number of times. I didn't look at this link long enough to figure out which American Standard it's referencing, but it does change.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...44770516,d.ZWU
Opens in a pdf file.

////

The point where the stop begins to go up vertically? If I understand it correct? Yes
So, that would be the point where you measure? It is very low placed then. How do you measure the scall? Do you measure at the side of the head (from stop to occiput of course) or do you follow the rounding of the scull from stop all the way back to the occiput? Hope it makes sence .

measurements are taken on top of the muzzle, and on top of the backskull, not the side Lay three fingers on top of the muzzle, and four fingers should fit on top of the backskull. Some you may have to squeeze your fingers together, or spread them a little, but the amount on both muzzle and backskull should be the same.

Yep, it seems that's how it works anyway.

////
Tom King is offline  
post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-06-2013, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
Sena
 
El Bueno Habanero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 372
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok, I get it finally, thank you very much Tom! Love to learn.
Talking about the muzzles...do you know what's the mode of inheritance? If I remember it correctly short muzzle is dominant over the long muzzle, right?

El Bueno Habanero is offline  
post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-06-2013, 12:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Tom King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lake Gaston, N.C.
Posts: 3,096
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 21 Times in 21 Posts
I don't think points of conformation are as dominant as we have heard they are. You will notice that most of these "dominant" theories come from Stud owners hawking their dogs ability to "fix" something. We see that they are always some combination of the two, or one or the other. The trouble with breeding extremes is that you may get the upper jaw from one parent, and the bottom jaw from the other, or at least either/or influenced more towards one or the other.
The same with jaw width. These are when you start getting into weird tooth issues. We like a nice moderate length and width of jaw in both parents. We have always avoided the short, narrow muzzle.
Tom King is offline  
post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-07-2013, 04:56 AM Thread Starter
Sena
 
El Bueno Habanero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 372
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom King View Post
We like a nice moderate length and width of jaw in both parents. We have always avoided the short, narrow muzzle.
It makes sense Tom. Thank you again for your explanations.

El Bueno Habanero is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome