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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Before You Buy

I wish I totally agreed with these statements made in different threads but not sure I can.. You all know my Smarty story, every mistake in the book. I knew better it just happened to work out for me because I read the Havanese standard, understood most of it and had a pretty good eye for structure. To make a long story short, I bought a pet, saw what was showing, decided to give it a try, Smarty won 3 majors her second weekend out at 7 months and finished her American championship at 9 months. All owner handled. She was spayed at 18 months because I did not feel she was breeding quality, she is now playing at agility.

BEFORE YOU BUY

1. Read the standard of the breed.
2. Get copies of all know health test for the breed, and understand the ratings or results.
3. Get references from breed clubs or past buyers of this breeder
4. Hair & Grooming can cover a lot of faults in this breed, be sure to see soaped pictures.

A pet is not a puppy with crooked legs or any other problem the breeder can spot that might need surgery, extensive medical attention or anything that will limit the quality of life it will have with a family. In the past these were considered culls. Breeders had to be held to a higher standard than I believed they do today. Good breeders did make the hard calls they did not have the option of limited registration for the dog. Any animal could face you in the ring to show your breeding program.

For a Breeder to sell a puppy for $1,500 for rather than $3,000, the difference in price should be due to coat quality, markings, size, better head piece, top line, length of body, tooth placement, etc but never, never for deformities. I always though the most important puppy sold was a pet going to the perfect family for the next 12 to 15 years.

My opinion, others please jump in with your thoughs.

Sandi, taking a new road with Smarty and Galen
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 11:28 AM
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Sandi, I agree with what you are saying here; Tucker entered my home as a beloved little family member, to share my life as long as possible. If he were sold to me as a "pet" because of structural imperfections that could lead to health issues, I would consider that unethical and radically wrong. None of us is guaranteed health and a long life, but, a breeder that would knowingly do that...would just be plain wrong.

As I've observed several times here on the Forum, the best breeders take their responsibility to the puppies they bring into the world very seriously.

Sheri, Tucker's Mom
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 11:28 AM
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Sandi,
You are correct that breeders more in the past would cull puppies that weren't right. However, in today's world, politics (PETA & other animal rights groups) make this practice not so popular. Also, many defects and health issues are not apparent at birth much less at 10 - 12 weeks when puppies in our breed are typically sent to their forever homes. The mind thought of society today is no different then a disabled human. They deserve to be cared for and live a life the best they can. Breeders in years past use to have 50 + breeding dogs, we call that today more of a puppymill type breeder. Things are different. As a breeder I made a decision a long time ago that if a newborn puppy wasn't thriving and heroic measures were needed, I probably would not take them. Thankfully I have not had to make that decision yet.

So, I guess for me, I am saying I don't totally agree with what you are saying. That is ok, as differing opinions is what makes the world go round. <grin>
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 11:47 AM
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I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying----but do you mean that us as breeders, should put a puppy to sleep if it has a deformity or other health issue that may affect it later in life? IF this is what you are saying, I disagree 100%--- and I will use my little Mouse as an example. I noticed when she was 6 weeks old that her leg was not right. I watched as it bowed out more each week. I kept her here at my house until she was 6 months old. I thought long and hard if doing surgery for her was the right thing. Putting her to sleep NEVER ONCE crossed my mind. I did end up doing the surgery on her and had her spayed at the same time-this was a very expensive surgery. She now lives with a lady who has some medical issues of her own. (and yes, this lady purchased Mouse). She absolutley LOVES Mouse with everything she has. I get updates frequently telling me that Mouse is the BEST dog ever. She loves her to pieces, and thanks ME for letting her have Mouse!
If I misunderstood what you are saying, I am sorry!


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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 12:13 PM
 
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This should be an interesting discussion. I'm not sure I understand exactly what Sandi is saying, though the gist of it to me seems that a more expensive puppy would be closer to perfect in terms of the standard, but that a less expensive "pet" puppy should not have any known health issues or deformities, just less perfectly conforming to the standard. I'm not sure I understand either what the fate is supposed to be for the ones with birth defects and deformities, maybe they should be donated or sold for a reasonable "adoption fee" to those willing to love them and meet their particular medical needs, and of course good responsible breeders should not have too many of those births occurring anyway, though what Kathy said about those problems not showing up until later could complicate that picture.

As a pet buyer, all I wanted was a healthy, even-tempered dog from healthy, happy parents who had been raised in a clean and loving environment with all the proper attention paid to her physical and emotional needs, and socialization, started on potty training, etc. I had some size, color and coat preferences, but beyond that, things like head shape and top line were not really an issue. Health and the happy, sweet, sociable personality that seems characteristic of this breed was my priority. I still would want my breeder and others to be striving to better the breed, though, because that only increases my odds of having less health or temperament issues with my dog if I do my part in her care and training once I bring her home.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy View Post
Sandi,
You are correct that breeders more in the past would cull puppies that weren't right. However, in today's world, politics (PETA & other animal rights groups) make this practice not so popular. Also, many defects and health issues are not apparent at birth much less at 10 - 12 weeks when puppies in our breed are typically sent to their forever homes. I agree but most breeders should be able to see alot of what is passed off as pets as health problems.The mind thought of society today is no different then a disabled human. They deserve to be cared for and live a life the best they can.I agree the breeder should keep them not pass them off as pets Breeders in years past use to have 50 + breeding dogsIn all the years I breed I never knew of anyone that had 10 breeding dogs much less 50, we too would have called that a puppy mill., we call that today more of a puppymill type breeder. Things are differentI don't think things are that different, People can just hide more under the "pet brand" with limited registration.. As a breeder I made a decision a long time ago that if a newborn puppy wasn't thriving and heroic measures were needed, I probably would not take them. Thankfully I have not had to make that decision yet.

So, I guess for me, I am saying I don't totally agree with what you are saying. That is ok, as differing opinions is what makes the world go round. <grin>

Sandi, taking a new road with Smarty and Galen
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MopTop Havanese View Post
I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying----but do you mean that us as breeders, should put a puppy to sleep if it has a deformity or other health issue that may affect it later in life? If you plan on keeping them that is fine IF this is what you are saying, I disagree 100%--- and I will use my little Mouse as an example. I noticed when she was 6 weeks old that her leg was not right. I watched as it bowed out more each week. I kept her here at my house until she was 6 months old. I thought long and hard if doing surgery for her was the right thing. Putting her to sleep NEVER ONCE crossed my mind. I did end up doing the surgery on her and had her spayed at the same time-this was a very expensive surgery. You did the right thing, you did the surgery, not pass it on to a pet owner. She now lives with a lady who has some medical issues of her own. (and yes, this lady purchased Mouse). She absolutley LOVES Mouse with everything she has. I get updates frequently telling me that Mouse is the BEST dog ever. She loves her to pieces, and thanks ME for letting her have Mouse!
If I misunderstood what you are saying, I am sorry!
this lady would have loved Mouse if she were a puppy with none of these problems.

Sandi, taking a new road with Smarty and Galen
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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Petaluna, you understood me perfectly. You are correct in what all pet owners should want and expect.

Sandi, taking a new road with Smarty and Galen
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 04:07 PM
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I think this is very important and needs to be said again (so I copied it!) ESPECIALLY THOSE THINKING OF BREEDING... But I will also say, go over the puppy in person if you can and the puppy's parents. For Dash, I was lucky enough to see his Grandma, Dad, and Mom and I see so much of them in him whether he is in the performance ring, chasing birds in the backyard, trying to grab a stick and bring it in the house, etc. I personally have never bred anything and not sure if I ever will but I love these dogs and wish every breeder would study, read, attend seminars, and really think about the litter they are breeding and put tons of time and effort into them that way everyone gets a great Hav puppy- especially families!

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BEFORE YOU BUY

1. Read the standard of the breed.
2. Get copies of all know health test for the breed, and understand the ratings or results.
3. Get references from breed clubs or past buyers of this breeder
4. Hair & Grooming can cover a lot of faults in this breed, be sure to see soaped pictures.

Dora, Dasher, & Belle's Mommy
www.belledoradasher.blogspot.com

Thinking of adding a Neezer, check out this thread!
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 04:21 PM
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As to putting a puppy to sleep because of a deformity or other health problem, not in my world. It would be like choosing to end the life of a family member with a less than perfect body.

<b>Just Milo and me, and . . . </b>Bailey makes three . . . until Ruby said, "hey, what about me?"
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