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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 11:39 PM Thread Starter
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Funny video

OK, so I might catch some flack for posting this but I think this clip is so funny. I know some people believe dogs don't feel guilt and are just reacting to the person's tone of voice and facial expression, which I agree with on many occasions, but sometimes I think dogs really do have a sense of guilt, or knowing they would get in trouble after doing something "naughty." My old big rescue used to counter surf, and on most days he would greet me coming home from school, but when I didn't see him, I'd discover he had snatched a loaf of bread off the counter and there'd be crumbs and bits of plastic all over the room...no dog though, he'd be hiding somewhere!

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-27-2013, 05:33 AM
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That is hilarious! Thanks for sharing.

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The dog becomes your dream come true, the very thing you wanted.
- Maurice Sendack

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-27-2013, 05:54 AM
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I have seen that before and it is just as funny the second time around!!!

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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-27-2013, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by whimsy View Post
I have seen that before and it is just as funny the second time around!!!
Me too and I laughed just as hard the second time around
All my dogs knew when they were doing something they shouldn't. They would hide or look sheepish. They know!

Lila
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-27-2013, 07:54 PM
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Chester knows very well when he has done something bad. I have seen that video somewhere before. Hilarious!


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Ruth and Chester
(Chester's DOB - 4/04/13)
"Dogs are NOT stupid, they are smarter than you think."
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-27-2013, 09:18 PM
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I've always liked my friend from IPDTA version on "guilt " and dogs. ....

While I think it's pretty clear from the research as well as dog
lovers' experiences that dogs have associations that are remembered, to say that
dogs have guilt is quite another thing. I agree with the thrust of an
earlier post that in order for a dog to feel guilt, it would have to be able to
internalize HUMAN beliefs about right and wrong and have a rather
sophisticated sense of morality. While Bekoff and others are showing that dogs do
have a moral code with each other and from a doggie point of view, I've not
seen anything that suggests that they can learn to adopt OUR moral codes
of right and wrong. They do build these associations with all kinds of
minute environmental cues, including our facial expressions, tone of voice, and
similar environments to prior situations where they were in trouble (as
noted in other posts). I might add that the "wait until your father gets
home" approach to discipline does not work well with children either, unless
you are trying to build anxiety problems in your child. Then it's all about
the anxiety and avoiding punishment and not about learning to stop the bad
behavior anyway. (Avoidance of punishment is one of the lowest levels of
moral development in humans and does not indicate true learning). I think
the same is true of dogs, but they have less capacity to hold such
behaviors in their heads until punishment is doled out. Dogs have memories and
anticipation, but mostly they live in the present (one of their great
beauties!).

We really don't need to punish dogs for these things - we either need to
manage the situation (don't leave the steak on the edge of the counter) or
teach an effective leave-it, even in the absence of human supervision. The
focus really needs to be on the alternative behavior we want under certain
circumstances.

As for the video clip of Denver the "guilty dog" - this has been under
discussion in several online dog training/behaviorist groups, and I think most
will agree that those dogs are throwing off stress signals like crazy. The
"grin" is actually a submissive gesture that shows high levels of anxiety
- I worked in rescue with a dog who did exactly this when he first came to
rescue. He was inaccurately named "Happy" for his grin, but he was
extremely fearful of human approach. A few weeks in rescue, and he looked like a
different dog - truly happy but without his fearful grin anymore. I
actually downloaded the guilty dog Youtube clip to show to my next
animal-assisted play therapy training group - for use as an exercise in recognizing
stress signals! (This video has gone viral because these are the behaviors
that most people think are guilt!) I'm still not sure why it's "cute" or
"funny" to make dogs feel this way deliberately. I can certainly cause these
reactions in my dogs with my tone of voice when they have done absolutely
nothing wrong, but I don't because I don't want to stress my dogs. We have
lots more education of the public to do!!


Risė


"Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand." --Mark Twain
"Life is too important to be taken seriously." --Oscar Wilde
Risė VanFleet, Ph.D., President
Family Enhancement & Play Therapy Center, Inc.
PO Box 613, Boiling Springs, PA 17007 USA
717-249-4707
_www.play-therapy.com_ (http://www.play-therapy.com/)

Director
Playful Pooch Program
Canine Assisted Play Therapy
_www.playfulpooch.org_ (http://www.playfulpooch.org/)

Licensed Psychologist (PA)
Registered Play Therapist-Supervisor (APT)
Certified Filial Therapist-Instructor (NIRE)
Canine Good Citizen Evaluator (AKC-CGC)
Certified Dog Behavior Consultant (IAABC)"

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-28-2013, 07:20 PM
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I don't think it's funny at all.

Even if dogs DID feel "guilt", (which I don't believe is the case) shaming dogs is no more right than shaming children. (who in many cases DO know exactly what they did wrong)

If we wouldn't do it to another adult, or wouldn't like it done to us, we sure shouldn't be doing it to children or animals.


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Last edited by krandall; 08-28-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-29-2013, 06:50 AM
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Oh no. I didn't think of the subtext in the video and I'm sorry that I offended anyone with my comments. I see your point(s), too. I don't consider myself uneducated but I do tend toward lighter interpretations which can be a blessing and a curse.

Traci & Ludo

*~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~*

The dog becomes your dream come true, the very thing you wanted.
- Maurice Sendack


Last edited by tra_po; 08-29-2013 at 06:51 AM. Reason: added
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-29-2013, 08:50 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tra_po View Post
Oh no. I didn't think of the subtext in the video and I'm sorry that I offended anyone with my comments. I see your point(s), too. I don't consider myself uneducated but I do tend toward lighter interpretations which can be a blessing and a curse.
No, no, we're used to these two tighty-pants. I was anticipating their reactions and was just going to ignore it, but I want to highlight a difference with this video and I don't want anyone to feel bullied. This is not the same clip as the Denver one, the "guilty" dog that is "smiling", or exhibiting a submissive grin and is supposed to be funny. I may not be a trainer, but my years being around stressed dogs in a professional capacity has taught me how to read a dog's body language, which IMHO is a better education than someone who reads out of a book, has very little hands on experience, then tries to tell everyone how they should raise their dog. I've been critical of clips that misinterpret what is actually going on before, and I've posted them along with my comments. There is nothing wrong with the clip, it's just good timing that the brown poodles happen to "point" to the guilty party (or the audience assume so, it's possible the other poodles were involved too in which case they are putting on their best poker-face - haha, just kidding) when the owner asks, the owner's voice isn't threatening, and she is not singling him out, the poodle has the freedom to walk away and is probably reacting that way from memory, not actually feeling guilty.

It's simply funny, and if you two wanted to "educate" everyone with your opinions, many of which I agree with, you could post an actual offensive clip, like the countless ones with the owner staring down a "guilty" dog in a corner, with the owner putting actual pressure on the dog and the dog showing signs of stress caused by the owner. Or the ones with a dog "hugging" a small child, but the child can't get away and the dog is almost on top of said child while no one is doing anything about it but filming. I found that one disgusting.

Lighten up and let people have a laugh!
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-29-2013, 03:19 PM
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Angela, I agree with you more often than not, but on this one we DON'T agree. I don't put any particular value on the brown pair looking at the white one. I'm SURE they are not "outing" their buddy. (dogs don't do that either) I disagree about the owner's voice too. It is certainly "stern" if not "threatening". The white dog is CLEARLY reacting to it... with a hunched back and squinty (submissive) eyes. And she DOES single the white dog out... she talks to each dog by name. The other two know they aren't in trouble. I suspect the white dog has gotten in trouble many times in the past. (note... this is different from feeling "guilty") I also seriously doubt there is any "audience"... that sure sounds like a canned laughter sound track to me!

I also think it's very unfair to start name-calling and "blame" Dave and me for trying to help the people on the forum who ASK for help. Believe me, it would be MUCH easier to just ignore all these folks, and spend the time on something else.

I can't speak to Dave's hands-on experience, but I know he is GREAT at coming up with helpful articles when people need them. Do I agree with him about everything? You know that I don't! But that doesn't mean I don't respect his opinions. As far as I am concerned, I suspect that my hands-on animal training experience goes back to before you were born. Not all of that has been with dogs, of course, but I think I've pretty clearly shown, with the competitive titles Kodi has earned in multiple venues, as well as the fact that he is a stable, good natured, well behaved family pet in our home and out in the "real world" that I am a competent with hands-on dog training as well. The fact that I ALSO believe in learning as much as I can about the SCIENCE behind dog behavior is, I think, a plus, not a minus in my understanding of dogs.

This is not in any way to belittle your experience handing dogs as a groomer. I am sure that has great value too. You have to handle dogs, very often poorly trained, poorly socialized ones under stressful circumstances, and still get the job done.

IMO, there are LOTS of cute, funny, dog videos on the internet, and this isn't one of them. (neither are the other ones that you mentioned... so we are in complete agreement there) As I said in my first post, I don't agree with shaming children and I don't agree with shaming dogs. I can't find anything REMOTELY funny about either.

And we are EACH entitled to our own opinion, hopefully, without name-calling.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)







Last edited by krandall; 08-29-2013 at 03:46 PM.
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