Layla's super sick! - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
 46Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Layla's Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Washington State
Posts: 426
Submit Photo: 6
Photo Submissions 12 Times in 12 Posts
Layla's super sick!

Well, there's another Havanese with stomach issues! Saturday Layla and I went to a rally/obedience play-day at our training center. She was a little "off", but I didn't think too much about it. When we got home she started having diarrhea. It just got worse and more frequent and then last night she started dry heaving and throwing up small amounts. So, about 2:00 am this morning we headed out to the ER vet. They did blood work, fecal, and exam and said she has Clostridium overgrowth. We don't have results from BW yet, but as of now that's what they are treating her for. They gave her a shot of Cerenia and famotidine and sent us home with metronidazole and pre/probiotics and said to give her Pepcid once a day.

I've never heard of this before! Has anyone else had any experience with this? Vet said she most likely got it from her food. I did give her a new brand of treats last week. Could that cause this? She has been on Now kibble and Primal freeze dried food for at least six months. I do change the protein source of the Primal, but other than that everything has been consistent, except for the new treats. This is just so out of the blue, as she has been so healthy! I would welcome any advice from you all, as I'm baffled how she could get such a thing from her food...

Christine and Layla

Esplendor's Dulce Cancion CD, RE, BN, TKN, CGC, CGCA

Layla's Mom is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 04:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Dee Dee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,038
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 40 Times in 40 Posts
Good grief!!!
The scope of this problem just can't be confined to the forum. I would think it would have to be a Havanese trait at some level. Plus we are a group of very informed and conscientious dog owners here so it's not like we're all doing stupid things and being neglectful. This is nuts!

Sophie's issue is bacterial overgrowth also. (SIBO) which is strange since she is the only one I've read about here that hasn't had a real problem with diarrhea, it's more tummy upset. But yes she has been on the same treatment Layla is on and has been on antibiotics for months now and likely will have to be the rest of her life.

I don't know how Sophie got hers either but I have always suspected it was her training treats, it was usually the same ingredients as in her food (i.e., cooked ground turkey while she was on turkey for protein, etc) but I still wonder if I gave her too many or ?

I'm sure Layla will kick this just fine but I am so sorry you have to go through this with her too!

We also work with a holistic vet, who is helping tons and in a much gentler way for long term. But I'm sure Layla's won't be long term.
Zoe093014 and Layla's Mom like this.
Dee Dee is offline  
post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 04:48 PM
Senior Member
 
boomana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 1,404
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 36 Times in 36 Posts
Ugh. Hoping she feels better soon.
Layla's Mom likes this.

boomana is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 04:51 PM
Metrowest, MA
 
krandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 24,541
Submit Photo: 8
Photo Submissions 336 Times in 334 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Layla's Mom View Post
Well, there's another Havanese with stomach issues! Saturday Layla and I went to a rally/obedience play-day at our training center. She was a little "off", but I didn't think too much about it. When we got home she started having diarrhea. It just got worse and more frequent and then last night she started dry heaving and throwing up small amounts. So, about 2:00 am this morning we headed out to the ER vet. They did blood work, fecal, and exam and said she has Clostridium overgrowth. We don't have results from BW yet, but as of now that's what they are treating her for. They gave her a shot of Cerenia and famotidine and sent us home with metronidazole and pre/probiotics and said to give her Pepcid once a day.

I've never heard of this before! Has anyone else had any experience with this? Vet said she most likely got it from her food. I did give her a new brand of treats last week. Could that cause this? She has been on Now kibble and Primal freeze dried food for at least six months. I do change the protein source of the Primal, but other than that everything has been consistent, except for the new treats. This is just so out of the blue, as she has been so healthy! I would welcome any advice from you all, as I'm baffled how she could get such a thing from her food...
Yes, every time Kodi has had diarrhea, it has been a Clostridium overgrowth. Gets very easy to ID, because of the distinctive and nasty smell. It was explained to me that the reason it makes them SO uncomfortable is that it produces a tremendous amount of gas.

In Kodi's case, it turned out to be partly related to several food intolerances (determined using Dr. dodd's Nutriscan testing). But although removing those items from his diet helped, it didn't completely solve the problem, even with the addition of pre and pro biopics and digestive enzymes. So he is on a VERY small maintenance dose of Tylosin (brand name Tylan) powder, and an occasional half a Pepcid, as needed. He hasn't had a single recurrence since starting on the Tylosin, and my vet says it is much safer, long term, than repeatedly being on Metronidazole.

It's certainly fine to treat with Metronidazole here and there, but with Kodi, I'm SO glad we were able to work out a regimen that KEEPS him healthy. I spent too many heart breaking nights sitting up with him as he cried in pain, ran for the door, then needed a butt bath when he came in.
Layla's Mom likes this.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & CH Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)






krandall is offline  
post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 05:59 PM
Sophie
 
KarMar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 952
Submit Photo: 4
Photo Submissions 29 Times in 28 Posts
Nino also had SIBO, though I don't remember what the bacteria itself was. The good news is that it cleared up completely after a few days on antibiotics (metronidazole), and he is back on his regular diet of Fromm + Stella and Chewy's or Nature's Variety. He also never had pain associated with it and was his happy, normal self (aside from when his butt was being scrubbed). He did whine once while passing a stool, but it seemed to be an, er...overuse thing more than anything else. With him, though, we are almost certain it was from an isolated incident of over-feeding cheese given the timing after the feeding (vet said it made sense for the overgrowth to rear its head after a few days). So far, so good, but he is on a pro-biotic now just to make sure it doesn't happen again. We are also strictly fasting from cheese...forever!
Layla's Mom likes this.

Sophie, Nino, and Brisket (Mario too!)



KarMar is offline  
post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 06:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Sheri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Twin Falls, Idaho
Posts: 6,255
Submit Photo: 11
Photo Submissions 53 Times in 50 Posts
Tucker has been on that metronidazole regimen a few times, too. Along with Dr. Dodd's Nutriscan for food sensitivities, and a year of trial and error, I was able to sort out a better diet for him. He will always be on pre-probiotics, pepcid, and occasional Tums. It is still a balancing act for us with occasional mild recurrences. Karen's info that Kodi is on daily Tylosin helped me lately with a recurrence of Tucker's. Now I know to give him small doses for a few days with symptoms start.

I hope that Layla's is a one time thing and that she recovers quickly!
Layla's Mom likes this.

Sheri, Tucker's Mom
Sheri is offline  
post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 06:27 PM
Metrowest, MA
 
krandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 24,541
Submit Photo: 8
Photo Submissions 336 Times in 334 Posts
Just found this article on VIN. It looks like SIBO is found in many breeds of dog:

Bacterial Overgrowth in Dogs-More Common Than You Think - WSAVA2002 - VIN

I don't know if what Kodi has is technically SIBO... The vet has never called it that. But I know she HAS said it's a Clostridium overgrowth, and I'm real glad that we've got it under control, even if it means being on the low dose Tylosin.
Sheri, Zoe093014 and Layla's Mom like this.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & CH Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)






krandall is offline  
post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 06:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Sheri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Twin Falls, Idaho
Posts: 6,255
Submit Photo: 11
Photo Submissions 53 Times in 50 Posts
Interesting, complex article, Karen.

Tucker hasn't been officially diagnosed with anything other than the vet saying he's probably got IBD. As far as I know, the vet didn't check his stool samples for clostridium, or never told me the results if he did. However, the treatment for SIBO/IBD has worked for Tucker, and the "diagnosis" fits, except for the weight loss part. It seems that there are many variables to this issue, though, and there is not just one, exact set of symptoms.

Thanks for posting the article. And all that we read may help in little bits for us to understand and manage it better.
krandall, Dee Dee and Layla's Mom like this.

Sheri, Tucker's Mom
Sheri is offline  
post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-20-2016, 12:19 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Layla's Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Washington State
Posts: 426
Submit Photo: 6
Photo Submissions 12 Times in 12 Posts
Thanks for the article Karen! There are so many different variables to this and it appears it is very hard to get an exact diagnosis. My vet did say she looked at her fecal sample (luckily I took one in-there was plenty to choose from, haha! Sorry, a little levity for a tough day) and it was full of the clostridium bacteria. She said that they learned in vet school, if there were more than 8 (she called them paperclip looking things) than it was an overgrowth. She also said this wasn't a definitive diagnosis, but she was pretty sure and we would treat accordingly.

I do suspect the training treats. I had been working on rear end awareness, with the perch, and was using a clicker and maybe treated too much, combined with the new kind of treats. I had read on this forum about the cheese being an issue so stopped using that a couple weeks ago, but I guess I was wrong on the new treats working.

A couple of you mentioned pre/pro biotics and enzymes. I have some that the vet prescribed, but think I'd like to give them long term. What brands do you guys use? I've also read that it's better to have them on a low fat diet. That contradicts the new raw, grain free diets they are suggesting nowadays. Any suggestions on food? Also, what is this Dr Dodd's Nutriscan thing you all are talking about and where do I have that done?

Sorry for the 20 questions, but I'm trying to figure this out Thanks!

Christine and Layla

Esplendor's Dulce Cancion CD, RE, BN, TKN, CGC, CGCA

Layla's Mom is offline  
post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-20-2016, 08:06 AM
Senior Member
 
Zoe093014's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: New york
Posts: 955
Submit Photo: 14
Photo Submissions 12 Times in 12 Posts
Oh no! Poor Layla Hope she is better by now!
Zoe093014 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome