I don't know what to call this - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 12:25 AM Thread Starter
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I don't know what to call this

Just take me for an old woman that doesn't fit in anymore with the world today. I have a comment to make about answering posts from newbies with new puppies that ask our for help or just answers to questions that may offend our sensibilities. I find that many of us are quick to critisize or put them down because they have made a mistake by buying a petstore dog or halfbreed mutt out of ignorance. I have seen this happen several times over the past year and I think that their question should be answered in a civil manner and they should never be lectured about what a mistake they have made. The mistake has been made by that person asking the question. They don't need to be lectured about how bad they have messed up. If someone has a problem with the person's question, they should start a new thread about that particular thing and not lecture the poor person who didn't know any better. Whether they are asking about breeding their little half-breed dog or about their petstore dog that they fell in love with and bought or whatever. That particular person came to this forum for an answer and not to be berated for being so stupid to buy a petstore dog or innocently wanting to breed their dog with another halfbreed dog or some designer dog--you get the drift. Whatever one may think, most of the population are of average intelligence and work off of impulse or emotion and do not think of all the whynots or what ifs. Some people can deal with the lectures and some just do not answer ever again.

I am probably phrasing this badly, but I have felt bad for a few innocents that have come on the forum with real questions and then been berated by some of us because they asked a very stupid question--the one that wanted to breed her dog comes to mind and the petstore puppy is another very recent one. Personally, I don't see anything more wrong with a petstore puppy or a rescue. Both types of puppies have been rescued.

Censor me if you want to; but I do think that we have been to hard on newbies.

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post #2 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 01:35 AM
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Wow Lucile,
what a thoughtful and insightful post. I appreciate your honesty and care. I think the mark of a good forum is not only its actual value in real, truthful content, but stating such in a civil, thoughtful way.
It's hard when you read the typed word, b/c you can read into it, perhaps what the writer did not intend.
I think it's hard when it comes to our pets, which are really fur family members, it's close to our hearts, and I would say that the folks on this forum, overall embody that. They aren't just pets, that we keep only in the backyard. I think it's great that the forum members here are passionate about the Havanese breed.
I'm new to this forum, and Lucile I hafta say, I've thought about leaving, just reading the tone of some of posts, like the one you allude to. No one likes getting flame, intentionally or unintentionally. We all have drama in our lives already, I personally don't need forum drama on top of it all. My personal motto is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

I would like to say, I do really appreciate this forum. It is truly my hav savior of info. and entertainment.

Nothing but love you all,
Jackie, owned by Ollie
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post #3 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 05:18 AM
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So true, Lucile. That is the only thing needed to make this forum perfect. There is so much information and support in here and it is really appreciated. We just need more kindness when dealing with special topics that are important to many of us. It is not what we say but HOW we say it...

Ache and Yunque's mom
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post #4 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Luciledodd View Post
, I don't see anything more wrong with a petstore puppy or a rescue. Both types of puppies have been rescued.

I agree with you except for the statement above. When anyone buys from a pet store they are putting money in the pockets of the puppy mills owners and operators. If the pet stores had no dog sales they would stop ordering puppies and many of the puppy mills would be out of business. A pet store sale encourages puppy mills to breed more dogs. You may save or rescue one by buying from a pet store but you are supporting the puppy mill industry in the inhumane treatment of the dams and sires to live a life of torment and misery and the production of more puppies.

Sandi, taking a new road with Smarty and Galen

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post #5 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 08:09 AM
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Hi Lucille,

I agree that it's ALWAYS important to treat people respectfully, here or anywhere else. It's common courtesy, and makes this a more pleasant place for everyone.

That said, I disagree with the idea that when someone comes here with questions specifically about concerns about their puppy mill or BYB puppy (whether it be that the dog in question clearly isn't a purebred, or that it is short haired when it was supposed to be a "normal" Hav or has health problems... you name it...) that people should stand by and say nothing about the problem with purchasing puppy mill/pet store/BYB pups. This problem is rampant, and to say nothing is to tacitly accept the practice.

You wrote: "most of the population are of average intelligence and work off of impulse or emotion and do not think of all the whynots or what ifs." People of average intelligence should be able to USE that average intelligence. (most of us here have "average intelligence; that's why it's called average) Average intelligence is NO excuse for not doing your homework and making a major life decision, both for yourself and the dog, based simply on impulse and emotion.

I've never heard anyone suggest that someone doesn't belong here because they have a puppy mill or part bred Hav. I've seen the opposite. I've seen people who have rescued dogs that "look like they might be part Hav" become valued, contributing members of the group. Likewise, many people who have come here after purchasing puppy mill dogs learn their lesson. They stay and learn, and often help educate others who come after them.

If a person wants to help rescue puppy mill Havs, they should do it by adopting one. There are plenty available. Purchasing one at a pet store or over the internet isn't "rescuing", it is perpetuating the abuse of the parent dogs.

As far as those people who even suggest breeding unregistered (let alone part bred) puppies, I'm sorry, in my book those posts cannot be dealt with lightly. People who even suggest such an idea need to be told in no uncertain terms that this is NOT OK. Anything less would be irresponsible.

We owe it to all the people who come here months before they purchase a puppy looking for good information on how to find and purchase a good quality dog to be a good source of that information. I was one of those people. I first started reading the forum almost 6 months before I purchased Kodi. I had been on many other internet sites looking for information too. I knew not to get a dog from the puppy mill outlet down the street, but not how to go about finding one. Many of the to-be-avoided places on the internet, like Puppy Finder, have all these cute ads of adorable pups set against velvet backgrounds. How cute! What I learned on this forum about such sites made my blood run cold when I thought of the mistake I could have made. But with my average intelligence I kept reading because it was important to me NOT to make an emotional, impulse decision, but to end up with a partner who, hopefully, will be with me for many years. With the help of this forum, I found a good breeder and an awesome puppy.

As I said in the beginning, I agree with you completely that it is important to always treat people respectfully, but especially on a public forum like this. I do NOT, however, agree that wrong-minded decisions shouldn't be pointed out to the people who made them at the time they post. In the recent posts, while I've seen people pointing out all the problems with pet store puppies and puppy mills, I've also seen at least as many (sometimes the same) people also saying, "What's done is done, your pup is adorable. He's not a Hav, but enjoy him for who he is!" That seems pretty fair to me.

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post #6 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 08:11 AM
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Before I got Gizmo (yes she is from a pet store) I started doing research (mostly on the financial costs behind having a dog/puppy, and how to train and care for them). I never thought I could have a dog because I have bad allergies/asthma and my friend mentioned to me that there are breeds that are hypoallergenic. I went online and found a listing and fell in love with the havanese. I went down to the pet store and they had them there and they put me in the room with them and I was fine! for the first time ever I could be in a confined space with a dog and not have any outbreak. I didn't see anything about puppy mills while doing this and honestly have never heard of one. All of our past family dogs when I was really young before allergies were either found on the side of the road or took over after family members counldn't take care of them so we never went through ways to get one. The found ones usually had some issues but my mom was stay at home and so it was never an issue. All of the people I knew who adopted had a lot of issues (health and behavior wise) and I was worried I wouldn't be able to give a special needs dog the attention it would need (it being my first one) and I always thought that those dogs were just coming from people who didn't take care or train there pets or counldn't afford them and gave them up (not that thats an okay thing). My boss recommended not adopting and going through a breeder since a lot of times those dogs require more special care and have health issues (now I know why), and she thought for my first dog I should be careful about that. I contacted a lot of havanese breeders and honestly only actually got two responses, one said basically said no since I work during the day (even though I have someone watch her several days a week) and never had a dog before, and they were concerned about the allergy issue. They were rude when they responded and said it was unthinkable. (Even with having a full time job and first time dog, I feel Gizmo is really well taken care of, and a happy healthy puppy). I tried to ask questions to other breeders but never got any responses. I don't know if they were BYB or what but never heard back. I didn't find this forum until after getting Gizmo. The only other said yes and started to answer things but then my boss said not to go to them since they didn't mention health testing. At this point I was frustrated.

The only place that was actually answering my questions and concerns at that point was the pet store I got her from. Not knowing about puppy mills and not getting any kind of helpful responses to my questions and concerns I decided to get her there. I am not trying to say it is the breeders fault and yes I could probably have done more research, but without knowing about puppy mills you don't know to reserach them. I saw online it said that a healthy havanese from a "reputable breeder" usually cost between $1,200 and $2,000 and if you shouldn't be paying less then that. Since she was $1,850 and the pet store said ow yes she is from a great breeder I thought I was doing the right thing.

After finding out about puppy mills I don't think the answer is to just not buy from pet stores (not trying to say you should support them), all that will happen is some will go under and where are all those puppies going to go. Some will stay open and it will probably make conditions worse for the dogs that are at the mills (kind of like when a company does poorly and they start taking away benefits). I think the answer is to fight for tougher breeder laws (like requiring the health tests) and have more people checking these mills and where these pet stores are getting there dogs. That will make it harder for them to make money and raise prices and therefore people wouldn't be running to lowcost pet stores anymore, but to the reputable breeders who are currently doing the right thing, which would put both out of business. I could be completely wrong and please don't think I support puppy mills or agree with what they do. I just don't like when people get bad mouthed either because they didn't know something that honestly is not out there as much as you might think.

After getting her I found out about the mills through the bad mouthing which made me nervous about joining this kind of forum and about telling the truth of where she if from. So far I have not gotten bad mouthed here but I have seen some of the posts you mention.
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post #7 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 08:26 AM
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Lucille, I think it is a good reminder for all of us. I know I sometimes feel as long as I say welcome, and good luck, or something nice at the beginning and the end that allows me to then say what ever I want. (even make a bad inside joke.)

Perhaps we should all check ourselves a bit when we get emotional and think about how we would feel about the responses if we decided to post that we switched to ALPO! just for example

Missy, Jasper & Cash
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post #8 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 08:32 AM
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Lucille, I agree with you. If my first post received the response that some of the newbies have gotten I never would have returned to this website.

Jill - Tess & Cody's mom
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post #9 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 08:44 AM
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I know this topic makes lot of people really upset and what not. Even for me, knowing what I know now.. But I have to admit, before getting Beamer and joinging this forum, I knew nothing about puppy mills and all that stuff. The only thing that saved me from that is I joined the forum a few months prior to buying Beamer from a great breeder.

Also, I don't think these behaviours will ever stop. People have been buying pups from pet stores forever and Im sure will continue to do so. Just because its not 'the right thing to do' does not mean it will go away. it's just a fact of life! People do all sorts of other much 'crazier' things in life that could have a direct negative impact (like dying) on the individual.. drinking and driving.. having unprotected sex with strangers, not wearing a helmet when riding a motorcycle (or even ridring a motorcycle..lol). All of these things could lead to death. Buying a pet store pup will not have any direct negative impact on anyone! (like seriously, the USA and even Canada have ALOT of bigger issues oging on than puppy sales) Just trying to put thngs into persspective here is all...


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post #10 of 74 (permalink) Old 07-30-2010, 09:20 AM
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Thank you Lucile for a well thought out post. I agree with nearly everything you said. I don't agree that buying a pet store dog or cat is a good thing but I fully understand the emotions behind it. Truth be told, six years ago I came thisclose to buying one myself while visiting my sister in Indiana. We went into a pet store to pick up some treats for me to take home to puppy McKenna and in the back was the most adorable Bichon boy I had ever seen. I carried him around the store for half an hour, knowing FULL WELL that no good breeder sells their dogs in a pet store. I even named him. The only reason I didn't take him home was because of all the stuff I would have had to buy to take him home on the plane. If that makes me an enabler for puppy millers, so be it. At the time, my thought was only for THAT puppy. He was already out of the mill. My buying or not buying him didn't make an iota of difference to the original miller. He had his money. Now, I just make it a point not to go into any pet store that sells dogs or cats.
I felt very bad for the original poster of the recent thread. Here is someone who has a new puppy, whom they adore, who asks questions, admits that they knew that a pet store was not the best place to buy a dog but the heart overruled the head. I ask, has that not happened to most of us at one tiime or another? Haven't most of us gone ahead and done something that we knew wasn't the best choice? In my 50 years on this earth, I know I have!
No one likes to be lectured to. The fact is, if she hadn't bought that puppy, someone else would have. The best way to stop puppy mills is to stop them at the source. Shoot the puppy miller, not the person who simply wants to give a puppy a better life.
Education is the key to solving the puppy mill problem and hitting a puppy buyer over the head with a two by four is not the best form of education. Save the two by four for the miller, or the broker, or store owner.


Last edited by mckennasedona; 07-30-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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