Socialization worries, etc. - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-11-2018, 06:10 PM Thread Starter
jay_39
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 203
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 7 Times in 7 Posts
Socialization worries, etc.

I’m bringing my 8-week old girl home in just over two weeks! I’m so excited, and nervous too. I’ve posted in the forum before about how to balance concerns about properly socializing a puppy and keeping her safe.
The rule of thumb seems to be to introduce her to 100 dogs and 100 people in her first month home. I imagine most people do not know 100 dogs (or anywhere close to that number!) that they can be sure are vaccinated and friendly. You might meet 10 in a puppy class.

Ballpark, how many dogs did you introduce your puppy to, and how did things turn out—is he/she well adjusted? I know the owners of a handful of smaller breed dogs that vaccinated and friendly.
jay_39 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-11-2018, 07:38 PM
Member
 
kbritt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 66
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
You must be so excited to be getting your little pup! I got Patrick at 8 weeks old and had him in puppy training and playgroup after a week and a half. He was so shy at first running under chair when playtime came but as the sessions continued (and as he watched the others play)he slowly showed interest. I'd say that by the 3rd week he was happily playing. I did take the advice of one of the trainers who suggested I drop him off at puppy care for a day a week (10 - 4) to help him overcome his hesitancy and that worked like a charm! At 5 months old now he still goes to puppy play and is SUCH A GOOD DOG! My last dog was not socialized with any other dogs besides her brother and Ipromised myself I would never let happen again if I ever got another dog; hence all the work with Patrick. Best of luck to you!
ShamaMama likes this.
kbritt is offline  
post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-11-2018, 07:57 PM
Metrowest, MA
 
krandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 23,610
Submit Photo: 6
Photo Submissions 298 Times in 296 Posts
All of my dogs were in school within a week of coming home from the breeder. They went to two classes a week... a puppy K class, mostly for socializeation, and a puppy obedience class, because the intent, with all of them, was competition obedience. All classes are at our very serious training center, where everyone is very knowledgeable and committed to the health of their dogs. The floor is disinfected before puppy classes, and I have ALWAYS been careful about not allowing my dogs to drink out of community bowls, etc.

I think the 100 dogs and 100 people in the first month thing is to drill it into peoples’ heads how important socialization is. You ALSO don’t want to get in the position of “flooding”, or overwhelming the puppy. What is important is to work diligently to arrange as many POSITIVE experiences as possible for the puppy, with as many kinds of people and as many FRIENDLY, GENTLE dogs as possible. ...and it really doesn’t stop after the first month... socialization is a life-long process. It’s just that they are SO impressionable in those first weeks, that you can get more done more quickly (if they are positive experiences) than at any other time in the dog’s life. But you can also do more harm in this period, if the puppy is overfaced and has bad experiences. So that means not trying to socialize an overtired puppy and not pushing a shy one to “socialize” when they are not ready.

Because many more dogs are euthanized due to poor socialization than die of diseases, I tend to err on the side of socialization. But I DO avoid places where unvaccinated dogs are likely to congregate. I don’t put young puppies on the floor in pet stores or the vet’s office waiting room (one of the WORST places!!!) and I don’t take them to dog parks. (Then again, I don’t take my adult dogs to dog parks either &#128521. I don’t live in the city, so if you do, I’d check knowledgable people in your area for places that are liekly to be “puppy safe”.

Be sensible, but try not to over-protect your puppy. And also tray ver hard not to be nervous about it, because THAt rubs off on a puppy too. They don’t understand WHY you are anxious, but they pick up on it. And they can decide that you must be nervous about all these dogs and decide that they should be too.
ShamaMama likes this.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)






krandall is online now  
 
post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-11-2018, 08:19 PM
Senior Member
 
ShamaMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,969
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 62 Times in 61 Posts
I feel like we tried hard to socialize Shama. She's been to so many classes - three puppy, two basic obedience, five or six intermediate obedience (starting again next week), five or six agility (starting again next week). She also went to puppy playtime at Petco from a very early age through recently (even though she's nearly three now). We also introduced her to a lot of people (and children at playgrounds).

Despite all that, she still barks at any dog she sees. I think it's a bark meaning, "Come and meet me!" but it's still frustrating. She also barks at dogs she can see/hear from our deck (which leads to her fenced back yard) with the exception of Bob and Mr. Wiggles next door. She doesn't bark at them. She just gazes at them lovingly and wags her tail.

It's an ongoing process. I just saw an ad for a class that says it will turn your dog into the calmest dog around . . .

I would say you should socialize her as much as you can without risking her health (by letting her walk where disease could be like Karen mentioned) and without risking her having a bad experience (Shama did get into a skirmish with an Australian Shepherd in one of our obedience classes, and, since then, she's never been as carefree as she used to be.)

Have you read the Dunbar publications Before You Get Your Puppy and After You Get Your Puppy?

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/B...ur%20Puppy.pdf

They talk about letting kids give your dog treats only after respecting a command (like sit or down) given by the kids. A friend of mine from agility, however, suggested I be the only to give Shama treats. In other words, the kids give a command, but then I give the treat. She thought that, in terms of future training potential, it would be important for me to be the keeper of the treats.

Looking forward to hearing how things go for you!

ShamaMama is offline  
post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-11-2018, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
jay_39
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 203
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thank you so much for your replies. Karen—you are always so patient and helpful and give such solid feedback! And ShamaMama too—you give great advice. Thanks for filling me in on what you did with Shama and how it has worked so far. I know I will have to keep my nerves in check for my puppy’s sake. I’m going to scope out the two places in person I’m thinking of taking her for puppy K and check on the things you mentioned about your facility, Karen, before I enroll her. There are only two places that don’t require the bordatella vaccine, unfortunately.

Again, thanks so much for your help. I know I will be asking for a lot of advice here in her first few weeks home!
krandall likes this.
jay_39 is offline  
post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-11-2018, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
jay_39
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 203
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 7 Times in 7 Posts
Yes, I am terribly excited Thank you for your reply and filling me in about Patrick. I will see what is offered in the way of puppy daycare in my area, for maybe her second month at home. I wouldn’t have thought of that!
jay_39 is offline  
post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-11-2018, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
jay_39
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 203
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 7 Times in 7 Posts
Kbritt—how old was Patrick when you started taking him to puppy daycare? How did it work with your potty training efforts?
jay_39 is offline  
post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-12-2018, 12:28 PM
Dave T
 
davetgabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 10,759
Submit Photo: 3
Photo Submissions 112 Times in 110 Posts
here's my take on socialization.

Socialization is a process whereby a dog learns to adapt and interact with their environment their own species, humans

and other animals. Primary socialization is roughly a period from about three weeks of age to about twelve weeks. It is the

most formative and important time in a dog's life. Here is the foundation on which the dog's temperament and future lies.

Puppies learn they are dogs. The littermates begin to play with each other practicing survival techniques for later on in

life such as biting, barking, fighting, posturing and chasing. They learn to relate to their littermates and develop a loose

hierarchy within the litter. If puppies are separated from their litter before 7 weeks, their ability to get along with other

dogs may be affected and they may not have learned to inhibit the force of their bite. Between the ages of 7 and 12 weeks,

they learn what human beings are and to accept them as safe. This is the time when rapid learning occurs and any experience

the puppy goes through has the greatest impact on future social behaviour, good or bad.

Primary socialization has been found to be independent of associated rewards and punishments, although emotionally

arousing stimuli both positive and negative seem to accelerate the process. Between six and eight weeks a pups willingness to

approach and make contact outweighs its wariness so this represents the best time for socialization to take place. After

twelve weeks there is a tendency to grow wary of novel stimulation so this is where further socialization wanes. Dogs that

are handled and petted by humans regularly during the first eight weeks of life are generally much more amenable to being

trained and living in human households. Ideally, puppies should be placed in their permanent homes between about 8 and 10

weeks of age. In some places it is against the law to take puppies away from their mothers before the age of 8 weeks. Before

this age, puppies are still learning tremendous amounts of socialization skills from their mother. Puppies are innately more

fearful of new things during the period from 10 to 12 weeks, which makes it harder for them to adapt to a new home.

In a letter to vets Dr,R. K. Anderson says Common questions I receive from puppy owners, dog trainers and veterinarians

concern: 1) what is the most favourable age or period of time when puppies learn best? 2) what are the health implications of

my advice that veterinarians and trainers should offer socialization programs for puppies starting at 8 to 9 weeks of age.
Puppies begin learning at birth and their brains appear to be particularly responsive to learning and retaining experiences

that are encountered during the first 13 to 16 weeks after birth [Dr. Anderson is saying that the prime time for puppy

socialization stops somewhere between 13 and 16 weeks, although more socialization occurs after that time]. This means that

breeders, new puppy owners, veterinarians, trainers and behaviourists have a responsibility to assist in providing these

learning/socialization experiences with other puppies/dogs, with children/adults and with various environmental situations

during this optimal period from birth to 16 weeks.
Many veterinarians are making this early socialization and learning program part of a total wellness plan for breeders and

new owners of puppies during the first 16 weeks of a puppy’s life -- the first 7-8 weeks with the breeder and the next 8

weeks with the new owners. This socialization program should enrol puppies from 8 to 12 weeks of age as a key part of any

preventive medicine program to improve the bond between pets and their people and keep dogs as valued members of the family

for 12 to 18 years.


To take full advantage of this early special learning period, many veterinarians recommend that new owners take their

puppies to puppy socialization classes, beginning at 8 to 9 weeks of age. At this age they should have (and can be required

to have) received a minimum of their first series of vaccines for protection against infectious diseases. This provides the

basis for increasing immunity by further repeated exposure to these antigens either through natural exposure in small doses

or artificial exposure with vaccines during the next 8 to 12 weeks. In addition the owner and people offering puppy

socialization should take precautions to have the environment and the participating puppies as free of natural exposure as

possible by good hygiene and caring by careful instructors and owners. Experience and epidemiologic data support the relative

safety and lack of transmission of disease in these puppy socialization classes over the past 10 years in many parts of the

United States. In fact; the risk of a dog dying because of infection with distemper or parvo disease is far less than the

much higher risk of a dog dying (euthanasia) because of a behaviour problem. Many veterinarians are now offering new puppy

owners puppy socialization classes in their hospitals or nearby training facilities in conjunction with trainers and

behaviourists because they want socialization and training to be very important parts of a wellness plan for every puppy. We

need to recognize that this special sensitive period for learning is the best opportunity we have to influence behavior for

dogs and the most important and longest lasting part of a total wellness plan. Are there risks? Yes. But 10 years of good

experience and data, with few exceptions, offers veterinarians the opportunity to generally recommend early socialization and

training classes, beginning when puppies are 8 to 9 weeks of age. However, we always follow a veterinarian’s professional

judgment, in individual cases or situations, where special circumstances warrant further immunization for a special puppy

before starting such classes. During any period of delay for puppy classes, owners should begin a program of socialization

with children and adults, outside their family, to take advantage of this special period in a puppy’s life.

When it comes to infectious diseases, Dr. Ian Dunbar says" the risks associated with attending puppy classes are minimal

to nonexistent and the benefits are positively huge: Puppies learn 1) bite inhibition through puppy play and 2) proper

interaction with people during off-leash play and while being handled by strangers. And owners learn to train their puppies

in a controlled setting in which training is integrated with play. In this setting, a puppy's reward for training is play

with other dogs. Dr,Jennifer Messer says puppy class not only offers an opportunity for critical socialization, but is also a

great forum for owners to help prevent other types of behaviour problems such as house soiling and hyperactivity (the two most

commonly reported behaviour problems of relinquished dogs) and to develop more realistic expectations of their dog—both of

which play key roles in reducing the chance of relinquishment. Dr. Griffin says I generally don't like dog parks for young

puppies. Behavioural risks—especially injuries from rough play, dog fights, or other sensitizing stimuli that can result in

generalized fear responses or aggression— associated with dog parks are present as much if not more than health risks for

young pups. I prefer that puppies socialize in class with puppies of the same age group and with familiar, gentle, dog-

friendly dogs that belong to friends and neighbours. Depending on a dog's temperament and size, 4 to 5 months of age (after

completion of puppyhood vaccines) might be a more appropriate age to start attending dog parks—and with close supervision ,

Good socialization introduces a puppy or dog to something new, maybe even challenges them a little, and gives them a

good experience with it. A pup must not be overwhelmed. Does the pup have an escape route and it should not be using it on a

regular basis or it will be too stressed to continue socializing. A dog who has an over-the-top reaction — to dogs, people,

whatever, is a dog too aroused to think clearly, process information, and retain that knowledge for later. In short, that

dog’s not going to learn. If your dog needs socialization, please help him get it! in the doses he requires. You will see him

make much faster progress with a series of baby steps than be throwing him into the deep end of the pool. If you don’t seem

to be making progress, consider professional help. It’s safe to say that you’ll make better progress with a good training

protocol than by just hoping things get better, and you certainly won’t be accidentally making things worse. Mistakes in

socialization, even if intentions are good, can backfire and may even produce an overly shy or overly aggressive dog. First

thing is that puppy should not be introduced to any social experience while restrained in a sling, stroller cart or anything

else. They must always have the opportunity to interact, signal and escape should they want to. That's why leash reactivity

exists so widely - because the dog's normal greeting is frustrated. When outside of puppy classes I would not introduce to an

entire group. Start with the most social. One dog at a time, puppy behind a baby gate and a free path to exit for both dogs.

Allow interaction for short periods, maybe 20 seconds and then have one person call each dog away, reward with yummies and

allow them to continue if they wish. Also be careful introducing more than one dog through baby gate. Do so for very short

interactions (10 seconds) and rotate the pairs as the dynamics change depending on the combination.

Socialization is much more than just exposing your dog to your family and dogs and maybe a few kids in your

neighbourhood, this is a good start but not nearly enough for most dogs/puppies. Socialization is taking the dog/ puppy

everywhere you go exposing the dog/puppy to hundreds of people young and old alike and all kinds of dogs. You want your

dog/puppy to meet many unfamiliar adults, young old in wheel chairs using crutches real life events school yards with lots of

yelling and screaming kids, and dogs of all different sizes and colors. This socialization will need to continue throughout

most of the dog’s life. An under-socialized dog is more likely to bite and or become stressed in unfamiliar environments and

situations. Mere exposure to things is not socialization. It’s true that dogs, especially puppies under 3 months of age,

need exposure to new environments, people, and animals. But socialization is not just introducing dogs to novel things. In

order for socialization to be effective, your dog needs positive associations with the novel things he encounters. If you

have a puppy under 3 months of age showing excessive fear of new situations (backing away, hiding, yelping, clawing at you),

you have a behavioural emergency on your hands. Get help now by contacting a good trainer in your area.
If you have an adult dog who is seems afraid of other dogs or people, or you can’t take him for walks because he’s barking

non-stop, you will benefit from working one on one with a dog trainer or animal behaviourist who can help you create a

behaviour modification program for your dog. In these situations socialization by itself may not be enough.

When talking about puppy classes Dr. Ian Dunbar says" puppy classes are truly wonderful but they offer too little too

late. Puppy classes are not a place to socialize barely socialized puppies. Instead puppy classes provide a safe forum for

socialized puppies to continue socialization under the watchful eye of a trainer on the look out for warning signs of

incipient temperament problems, especially fearfulness and aggression towards people, so that they may take immediately

remedial action. Many breeders, veterinarians and owners simply don’t see the point of early socialization and handling

because the puppies are easy to handle and already appear to be confident and friendly. In fact, many young pups appear to be

super-mega-confident and overly-friendly and so, why socialize sociable puppies? Consequently, people are predictably shocked

when at about five-and-a-half to eight months of age, their friendly and socialized puppy becomes shy, aloof, wary,

standoffish, protective, fearful, reactive and maybe aggressive towards people. Of course puppies are confident and friendly

and easy to handle. They’re puppies! All young pups should be universally outgoing towards people. Fear and aggression do not

develop until later in life. Moreover, developing anxieties and fears of the unfamiliar or scary later in life is a normal

and adaptive development process. Adolescent and adult dogs will generally accept species and individuals that they played

with as puppies yet they will likely shy away from species and individuals that they did not have adequate opportunity to

interact with as puppies. To prevent fear and aggression, the unfamiliar and scary of adolescence must become the familiar

and commonplace of puppyhood.The socialization process is deceptive because all puppies appear to be Mr. or Ms. Sociable at

two, three and four months of age and so breeders, veterinarians and owners are unaware that anything is amiss. People are

duped by their puppy’s confident and friendly demeanour, not realizing that the effects of insufficient socialization will not

become apparent until later in life. But by then of course, it is pretty much too late for quick, easy and effective

rehabilitation".
ShamaMama and Marni like this.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
davetgabby is offline  
post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-12-2018, 08:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Marni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 1,231
Submit Photo: 7
Photo Submissions 50 Times in 49 Posts
I kept my puppies in their sherpa bag at the vet's office. You cannot contain the magnetism of the Havanese otherwise, and people at the vet's office with sick animals will want to pet your pup! When I went in with a sick Zoey and had her in my lap, a golden owning lady came over and patted her as we were talking. I said, "Now, go to the restroom and wash your hands", and she did. Then as we continued to talk she reached over and stroked my silky dog again, so again I said, "Now you need to wash your hands again". She did, and then stayed away from us. I was trying to protect her dog. Bless us, we also have to train people as well as dogs. Who would imagine a vet's office as a place to handle other people's dogs?

Big pet stores and big box home improvement stores offer a chance for a dog to meet friendly strangers, but again, I kept mine inside the bag down in the cart, and would unzip to show pup off. No doggie contact with floor or cart was ever made in our case.

Marni is online now  
post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-12-2018, 08:59 PM
Metrowest, MA
 
krandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 23,610
Submit Photo: 6
Photo Submissions 298 Times in 296 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marni View Post
I kept my puppies in their sherpa bag at the vet's office. You cannot contain the magnetism of the Havanese otherwise, and people at the vet's office with sick animals will want to pet your pup! When I went in with a sick Zoey and had her in my lap, a golden owning lady came over and patted her as we were talking. I said, "Now, go to the restroom and wash your hands", and she did. Then as we continued to talk she reached over and stroked my silky dog again, so again I said, "Now you need to wash your hands again". She did, and then stayed away from us. I was trying to protect her dog. Bless us, we also have to train people as well as dogs. Who would imagine a vet's office as a place to handle other people's dogs?
I leave my dogs in my car at the vet, and wait in the waiting room myself. When they call me, I go get my dog(s) and bring them in. People are STUPID in vet waiting rooms. They come in with a Rottie on a flexi, and let it wrap around everyone, saying, "Don't worry! He's friendly!" No THANK you! LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marni View Post
Big pet stores and big box home improvement stores offer a chance for a dog to meet friendly strangers, but again, I kept mine inside the bag down in the cart, and would unzip to show pup off. No doggie contact with floor or cart was ever made in our case.
The problem with this is that if the puppy is the LEAST bit nervous or frightened (and that's not always obvious) they have no way to escape when introductions are done in a carrier or cart. That can be pretty traumatizing.

I prefer to make sure that ALL introductions are as carefully orchestrated as I can manage, and NOT with people who are strangers to me, where I can't count on them following my instructions. Kodi survived a lot of my un-educated attempts to "force socialization on him, and turned out great in spite of it. But I know more now, and am pretty horrified at some of the things I did. I also did a lot of GOOD things, but I pushed him in ways I never would push a puppy now.
ShamaMama and Marni like this.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)






krandall is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome