breeder on West coast of FL - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-22-2019, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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breeder on West coast of FL

Has anyone used a breeder named Royal Flush Havanese? Any experiences to share?
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-23-2019, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nora View Post
Has anyone used a breeder named Royal Flush Havanese? Any experiences to share?
Not much to offer, but I worked down in that area for awhile. One of the customers had purchased 2 Havanese from Royal Flush. The one she brought to the store was almost 1. Now, at that time, I knew very little about Havanese. But I did think her dog was super cute, and very well behaved. When I told her i was interested in someday owning one, she carried on exuberantly about how wonderful the breeder was, both in their dealings with her, and the qualities of their dogs. When I was finally to get a dog, I did check them out but they had no puppies available in Florida at that time. My search then took me elsewhere.
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-23-2019, 09:18 AM
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Really, REALLY bad news. Basically a puppy mill. Run, don't walk.


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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-23-2019, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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That's too bad because they had a very cute dog. What makes them a puppy mill?
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-23-2019, 07:54 PM
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Plenty of breeders have really cute dogs Royal Flush has over 30 breeding dogs, do not title any of their breeding dogs, breed dogs as young as just over a year old, and because they do so, they are not completing all breed recommended (required, IMO) health testing.

Sophie, Mario, and Nino.



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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-24-2019, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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Hi, I am trying to educate myself on this topic. I have a few questions -

First, I check every breeder with the AKC and all have been registered in good standing. I have not received any complaints about any breeder that I have checked. Can I trust the AKC?

Next, what does it mean to "not title a breeding dog"?. What constitutes "all related breed health testing"? What tests are done and by whom, a Vet? What paperwork is given to the buyer of a pup to show that this health testing has been done and the results of the testing? Exactly what type of tests are done? (At one time in my career I worked in a clinical laboratory so I understand all types of health testing).
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-24-2019, 09:44 AM
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It is important to remember that AKC isn't much more than a registry. They want breeders to hold themselves to high enough standards, but they can't do much policing without placing regulations on breeders (something that only harms those doing so responsibly). Essentially, being in good standing with the AKC means you haven't made any egregious mistakes or done anything really awful that they can see...so if you aren't going to any events (as Royal Flush doesn't), it is difficult to not be "in good standing" no matter how scummy your breeding program. I recommend looking to HCA (Havanese Club of America) members and members of affiliated local breed clubs, as there is a bit more oversight there.

Titling a breeding dog means the dog has done something to prove its worth to the breed and done so well enough to earn titles. Often a conformation championship, but also things like agility or obedience titles. Royal Flush claims to be breeding to "improve the breed" but seeing as they are breeding out of standard dogs without any performance titles or full health testing, I can't imagine they are helping the breed much at all.

Many breeds are involved in the CHIC (Canine Health Information Center) program where the breed clubs decide which tests the breed should have done. For Havanese, the tests required for a CHIC number are hips, patellas, BAER hearing test, and eyes checked annually by a board opthamologist. Hip radiography are taken and then submitted to OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) where a group of orthopedist will rate the hips. Patellas can be checked by any vet, they just need to know proper procedure. HCA also mentions elbows (also sent to OFA), cardiac (done by a specialist), thyroid (sent out to a lab), and LCP (sent to OFA). One of the hallmarks of Havanese is that they are astoundingly healthy, and not health testing fully just throws all of that out.
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Sophie, Mario, and Nino.



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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 02-24-2019, 07:10 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora View Post
Hi, I am trying to educate myself on this topic. I have a few questions -

First, I check every breeder with the AKC and all have been registered in good standing. I have not received any complaints about any breeder that I have checked. Can I trust the AKC?

Next, what does it mean to "not title a breeding dog"?. What constitutes "all related breed health testing"? What tests are done and by whom, a Vet? What paperwork is given to the buyer of a pup to show that this health testing has been done and the results of the testing? Exactly what type of tests are done? (At one time in my career I worked in a clinical laboratory so I understand all types of health testing).
I’m sure AKC would disagree their AKC registration is an inferior product.

“Puppies can be assigned full or limited registration by the breeder. Limited registration is for puppies that the breeder does not consider breeding quality; if they are bred, their puppies cannot be registered. The individual puppy is not registered unless the registration form is filled out and mailed to AKC.”

A full or limited AKC registration means the dog is purebred. Breeders assign limited AKC registrations to puppies to protect the bred and/or to keep people from breeding their dog. Some breeders require you to spay or neuter the dog for the same reasons.

I see - dog and for that matter animal breeders on a continuum. Some feel only champion, titled dogs should be bred. Their reason: to protect the breed. Of these, some produce many litters and sell them for profit.

There are high volume breeders who are, also, interested in high quality, pure bred dogs, breed them for profit and sell them as pets such as Royal Flush and Jaco Kennels. Their breeder dogs are AKC registered. Some are titled or have been shown, won points or not. They do health checks, health guarantees, take good care of their breeding dogs and puppies. Socialize them. Microchip. Love and want the best for their dogs. All the things an individual breeder of champion dogs do.

If you’re interested in showing a dog you’ll probably look for a breeder who has champion breeding dogs with a long list of titles. You may or may not end up with a champion dog with titles if you purchase one. However, it will be fully AKC registered and if you bred it with another AKC registered dog you can decide to give full AKC registration or limited AKC registration to puppies from that litter.

If you’re interested in a pet - a good quality breeder - who has good dogs - will probably do just fine. You’ll have a limited AKC registration but that doesn’t mean your dog could not win champion titles. Just like the full AKA registration doesn’t guarantee titles.

There are a handful of people on the Havanese Forum who are interested in showing their dogs. Most are pet owners who have gorgeous purebred Havanese dogs. A few aren’t purebred but are beautiful, as well.

There are puppy mills. Royal Flush and Jaco Kennels are not even close to what is called a puppy mill. Just like individual champion breeder owners who sell for profit are not puppy mills.

OTOH, there are individual home breeders who are puppy mills on a small scale. Those you should stay away from in order to not encourage them to continue to breed.

Below a description of puppy mills.
https://yourdogsfriend.org/before-yo...s-puppy-mills/

I know my post is going to cause a lot of heartburn for some on this site.
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