Update on taurine/heart disease - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-24-2019, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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Update on taurine/heart disease

https://www.hemopet.org/fda-updates-heart-disease-dogs/

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-24-2019, 01:53 PM
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I think it is time to use common sense on this topic. Does anyone really think that peas, lentils, legumes or potatoes are species appropriated food for dogs? Letís be honest...these are cheap fillers that the pet food companies use because meat is too expensive. It used to be corn, wheat and soy...now they use peas, lentils, legumes or potatoes.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-25-2019, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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here's from Sabine (nutritionist) on this topic ..."If we are talking species appropriate, no, they certainly aren't. You wouldn't find a wild canid ingesting any significant amounts of legumes or potatoes. Other than if they were really starved and desperate maybe, but even then, in an unprocessed state these are pretty much indigestible since the dog's GI system isn't really equipped to break them down.

However, that doesn't mean that in the diet of domestic dogs they are "just fillers", since when cooked, the dogs CAN digest them and DO utilize the nutrients in them. That's a proven fact. If it weren't, I would have an awful lot of special-needs client dogs who would not survive because they can't tolerate a standard (and/or species appropriate) diet.

That doesn't mean that vegetable-based ingredients should make up the major part of the diet of a dog, and that's where we come to "grain free" diets that appear high in protein because of the addition of a large amount of vegetable protein. Example: pea protein powder, as added to kibble dough, can be 85% protein. Even if it makes up only 20% of a formula, that boosts the overall protein content considerably, even without the addition of much quality meat."
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-25-2019, 07:57 PM
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Our little fellow use to get a day every so often where he is acting like he is bunged up and not wanting to eat.
We read where a bit of yams, pumpkin or carrots are good for settling his stomach.
So even second or third day we will feed him a teaspoon full of one or the other. They are fully cooked and eats it with great gusto. I believe from what I am seeing that it really helps with his stomach.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-25-2019, 08:09 PM
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Thank you for this information. I am always trying to learn more about dog nutrition. I do feel that small amounts of veggies and fruits either cooked or pulverized so the dog can assimilate them can be of benefit in providing vitamins and phytonutrients. However, I believe the dogís protein source should come from meat. When I said that the use of legumes and such are fillers, I meant they are using a lot of these things in place of the protein that should come from meat because vegetable based protein is cheaper. To me, veggie protein is of a much lower quality than meat protein for a dog. However, I really do not know much about kibble. Everything I have read is on feeding a raw diet. Perhaps some of these things must be added to kibble for fiber which would typically come from bones in a raw diet.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-26-2019, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davetgabby View Post
here's from Sabine (nutritionist) on this topic ..."If we are talking species appropriate, no, they certainly aren't. You wouldn't find a wild canid ingesting any significant amounts of legumes or potatoes. Other than if they were really starved and desperate maybe, but even then, in an unprocessed state these are pretty much indigestible since the dog's GI system isn't really equipped to break them down.

However, that doesn't mean that in the diet of domestic dogs they are "just fillers", since when cooked, the dogs CAN digest them and DO utilize the nutrients in them. That's a proven fact. If it weren't, I would have an awful lot of special-needs client dogs who would not survive because they can't tolerate a standard (and/or species appropriate) diet.

That doesn't mean that vegetable-based ingredients should make up the major part of the diet of a dog, and that's where we come to "grain free" diets that appear high in protein because of the addition of a large amount of vegetable protein. Example: pea protein powder, as added to kibble dough, can be 85% protein. Even if it makes up only 20% of a formula, that boosts the overall protein content considerably, even without the addition of much quality meat."
I think it's REALLY important to understand both of these parts...


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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2019, 07:14 AM
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This issue and what to feed has left me confused and frustrated. I had been feeding Henry 1/2 origen kibble and 1/2 Stella and chews freeze dried patties, rotating the protein source on the patties - chicken, lamb, duck, beef, surf n turf. Both are grain free. The S&C is about 95 % meat and no legumes or peas. The origen is mixed sources of protein, primarily chicken turkey eggs and fish and does contain peas and legumes but the first 15 ingredients are meat and fish.

When i talked to our vet she wanted us to use a kibble with some grains, preferably barley, oats and/ or rice. She had a dog in her practice, a 2 yr old poodle die of DCM who was eating a grain free diet and felt it was better to be cautious.

I looked at several different kibbles and couldnít find one I thought was as high quality as the Orijens that wasnít grain free and didnít have peas/ legumes. But i changed to Frommís Gold small breed because I was scared no to. It Henry still doesnít like it much. he gilles down his stella and chewys and will sort of pick at the Frommís eating it when really hungry. during the transition heíd pick out all the orijens and leave the Frommís, which btw was the kibble his breeder used.

I would like to go back to the orijens but would never forgive myself if something happened to Henry as a result. I remain confused and worried.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Henry&Kate View Post
This issue and what to feed has left me confused and frustrated. I had been feeding Henry 1/2 origen kibble and 1/2 Stella and chews freeze dried patties, rotating the protein source on the patties - chicken, lamb, duck, beef, surf n turf. Both are grain free. The S&C is about 95 % meat and no legumes or peas. The origen is mixed sources of protein, primarily chicken turkey eggs and fish and does contain peas and legumes but the first 15 ingredients are meat and fish.

When i talked to our vet she wanted us to use a kibble with some grains, preferably barley, oats and/ or rice. She had a dog in her practice, a 2 yr old poodle die of DCM who was eating a grain free diet and felt it was better to be cautious.

I looked at several different kibbles and couldnít find one I thought was as high quality as the Orijens that wasnít grain free and didnít have peas/ legumes. But i changed to Frommís Gold small breed because I was scared no to. It Henry still doesnít like it much. he gilles down his stella and chewys and will sort of pick at the Frommís eating it when really hungry. during the transition heíd pick out all the orijens and leave the Frommís, which btw was the kibble his breeder used.

I would like to go back to the orijens but would never forgive myself if something happened to Henry as a result. I remain confused and worried.
Canít they test levels if the issue is caution, especially if heís been on that diet for a while? If heís eating half and half it seems to me heís not really eating a food high in peas/legumes, either, but what do I know!

Fromm was one my dog picked out when I tried transitioning, too. But nothing is as enticing as the freeze dried!
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2019, 10:20 AM
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Henry, if you are utterly and total confused about what to feed your dog, you are not alone. As far as your vet scaring you about the poodle who died of DCM from eating grain free food, I feel this is crazy. All grain free foods are not created equal. Also bear in mind that most vets have had about 1 hour of nutritional training given by large pet food companies like Purina so most of them are clueless about dog nutrition. Could you consult with a dog nutritional expert to develop and homemade diet for your dog? I feed my dogs a raw homemade diet, however there are raw and freeze dried commercial diets like Stella and Chewys. If your dog is liking the freeze dried Stellaís and Chewys, why not ditch the kibble and just feed that? You could rotate the different proteins they offer. Freeze dried is essentially raw. If you choose to feed both kibble and freeze dried/raw, it is better not to serve them together in the same meal as the kibble does not digest at the same rate as the raw and will make digestion more difficult. I do not feel that dogs were meant to eat pellets out of bag. I think your dog is telling you something when he goes for the Stella and Chewys freeze dried. I never feed my dog something they do not like. I wish you the best in searching for the best food for your fur baby! Here is what my Mia ate for breakfast.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 01:03 AM
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same here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry&Kate View Post
This issue and what to feed has left me confused and frustrated. I had been feeding Henry 1/2 origen kibble and 1/2 Stella and chews freeze dried patties, rotating the protein source on the patties - chicken, lamb, duck, beef, surf n turf. Both are grain free. The S&C is about 95 % meat and no legumes or peas. The origen is mixed sources of protein, primarily chicken turkey eggs and fish and does contain peas and legumes but the first 15 ingredients are meat and fish.

When i talked to our vet she wanted us to use a kibble with some grains, preferably barley, oats and/ or rice. She had a dog in her practice, a 2 yr old poodle die of DCM who was eating a grain free diet and felt it was better to be cautious.

I looked at several different kibbles and couldn’t find one I thought was as high quality as the Orijens that wasn’t grain free and didn’t have peas/ legumes. But i changed to Fromm’s Gold small breed because I was scared no to. It Henry still doesn’t like it much. he gilles down his stella and chewys and will sort of pick at the Fromm’s eating it when really hungry. during the transition he’d pick out all the orijens and leave the Fromm’s, which btw was the kibble his breeder used.

I would like to go back to the orijens but would never forgive myself if something happened to Henry as a result. I remain confused and worried.
I do the same thing - though was already on Fromm (and rotate between all the different Fromm flavors except those with chicken in them as well as rotating the S&C) because (1)it's easier to get than Orijen and (2) I didn't think the orijen's ingredient list was that much better than Fromm (but everyone has different opinions on that). The way I understood the issue was that it was less about there being peas and legumes and more about whether there was enough high quality meat-based protein in a food (because the peas and lentils, unlike grains, can mask the protein percentage - you can't tell how much is from the meat versus the legumes). So, with high quality kibble the highest level ingredients are meat AND with the addition of the S&C I figure he's getting enough high quality meat in his diet.

Perry does like the S&C better, but he eats his Fromm too. I also moisten the Fromm and he likes it better that way than dry.
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