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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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colors

I know I may be rehashing this topic, but I am reading and trying to research. I still cannot grasp this concept. Is it not possible to guess what colors the puppies will be? If the parents are a specific color and carry a certain gene, it seems that a breeder should be able to guess what colors would be in the litter. I can understand in a mixed breed litter not knowing what to expect, but I am a little confused with the Havanese. I am very familiar with color changes, but this is different from not knowing what colors to expect in the litter.

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 10:11 AM
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Mollyís Mom was cream colored who was most likely sable to start with. The Dad was black and white pied. Her litter had seven puppies with four different color combinations. Black and white parti, black and tan,and two different sable combinations, one with more cream or white pattern and one more uniform sable color.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Molly, this is a beautiful litter. So the breeder couldn't guess what colors to expect based on Molly's mom and dad?
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 10:36 AM
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Thanks, Molly, this is a beautiful litter. So the breeder couldn't guess what colors to expect based on Molly's mom and dad?
I am no breeder but just as they canít predict the number of puppies, I donít believe that you could know which of these color combinations or patterns of color will show up. A breeder would know if the puppies would silver or retain their color or have the belton gene.



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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your reply. You actually answered my question. I wanted to know if breeders can tell if a specific gene or strain runs within their breeding lines?
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Vartina Ancrum View Post
I know I may be rehashing this topic, but I am reading and trying to research. I still cannot grasp this concept. Is it not possible to guess what colors the puppies will be? If the parents are a specific color and carry a certain gene, it seems that a breeder should be able to guess what colors would be in the litter. I can understand in a mixed breed litter not knowing what to expect, but I am a little confused with the Havanese. I am very familiar with color changes, but this is different from not knowing what colors to expect in the litter.
Yes, to some extent it is possible, and depending on whether the breeder does genetic color testing you can get an even better guess, depending on the parents. For instance, if you have two ee parents, you can ONLY get ee offspring. That still means that the puppies can be anything from light cream to dark Irish setter red. They can also have anything from no white markings to being almost totally white with just a few red or cream spots on their ears. So still a lot of variation.

Likewise, some lines are pretty much ALWAYS black and white (varying amounts)

Chocolate tends to be much more of a "mixed bag" because it is hard to breed show quality chocolates without breeding back to black dogs regularly. And in doing so, you will have a certain percentage of black (or black and white) puppies that carry for chocolate, but LOOK black with or without white)

Black and white and sable are often mixed in the same litters, because the genes do not cancel each other out. Interestingly, a friend of mine bred her chocolate bitch to her gold sable stud 3 times and got all black and white puppies all three times. The other "problem" is that Havanese have all these "modifying" genes, like the silver gene, that can pop up sometimes without you even knowing that the parents carry them... and they can be single or doubled. Or you can have the "black and tan" gene, which gives them eyebrows! Oh, and MANY of these genes can be present in the same dog, but only a few of the "expressed" (visible) because others cover them up!

So SOMETIMES litters are more predictable than others, and the more experienced a breeder is with her lines, the more likely is that she can make a good educated guess. She should FOR SURE be able to tell you whether there is any (or no) chance of chocolate, and any (or no) chance of clear red. Beyond that, unless she is really interested in color, and has done a bunch of color testing for the sake of her own interest (because it is not necessary for of our standard) she is only going to be able to make an educated guess before the puppies are born.

AFTER the puppies are born, some lines of B&W's are known to hold their black very strongly. The breeder will probably know that. They will probably also know if their puppies are likely to carry the Belton gene. When you get into ANY other colors, the likelihood of them changing color, lightening or darkening is, again, guesswork. MOST (but not all) chocolates lighten. MOST (but not all) Sables lighten, clear reds are strange... Some lighten, some darken. Silvers always lighten, but how much? It's hard to say. Fading blacks... fade. Beltons always get some spotting in their white areas, but that can vary from dogs like my Kodi, who is basically still white at 10, with a strip of silver down his spine, to dogs where their entire white markings turn a sooty color.

Sooo... There are a lot of genes at play.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly120213 View Post
I am no breeder but just as they canít predict the number of puppies, I donít believe that you could know which of these color combinations or patterns of color will show up. A breeder would know if the puppies would silver or retain their color or have the belton gene.
They might know IF the puppies could carry these genes, but not necessarily whether they would express them for a certainty.


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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the information. So breeders do have some idea what colors run in their lines; it's just that they can't predict for sure what color a litter will be, which makes sense because there is no way to know the size, gender, or exact colors.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 08:07 AM
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Thanks for the information. So breeders do have some idea what colors run in their lines; it's just that they can't predict for sure what color a litter will be, which makes sense because there is no way to know the size, gender, or exact colors.
We canít really predict ďcolorsĒ with humans with much accuracy either! I have one son who is cornsilk blonde and blue eyed, and was built like a fire plug as a kid, and though he has stretched out as an adult still broad shouldered. My other son was born dark eyed, dark haired, long and skinny from the day he was born. No one believed they were brothers when they were little, no one believes they are brothers now! LOL. (And yes, same father &#128521
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks. Things are a little clearer now. I know there's no way to be sure because it's out of our control. However, I am guessing a breeder knows what genes run in her lines.
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