How far back can you trace your Hav's lineage? - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-11-2011, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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How far back can you trace your Hav's lineage?

I read recently that all the Havanese in the US come from eleven dogs that made it out of Cuba during the revolution.

When did the AKC recognize the Havanese as a breed and how did anyone know they had a pure bred dog to start off with, unless they could trace their dog to one of the eleven? And how do we know those eleven were pure bred Havs? And I can see there are Havs in Europe - where did they come from and aren't any of their progeny in the US?

Since my pup comes with papers, presumably I will be able to trace her family back to when the AKC started issuing papers. Is there anyplace I can actually see the whole family tree?

LOL these are things I think about when I can't go to sleep...
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 09:33 AM
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This is a fun topic.

First, let me recommend a very good book for the history of Havanese, written by the lady who started Havanese in the US, Dorothy Goodale. Called "Havanese, A Complete and Reliable Handbook." Another good book is written by Zoila Portuondo of Cuba, that relates to Havanese History.

As Dorothy wrote about the origins of the Havanese, they probably originated in the Mediterranean area and were found in France, Italy and Spain hundreds of years ago. They were one of the five Bichon types of dogs, were originally white. Some historical writers of dogs in general, believed that the Havanese descended from the Maltese Another writer believed the Havanese traveled to Cuba during the Spanish empire. Some Cubans believe that the dog came to Cuba by way of Italian seamen and they were given as gifts to the wealthy Cuban aristrocracy.

Dorothy Goodale says that the first Havanese on record in the US were smuggled out of Cuba by their families who were fleeing the Revolutioin. She bought dogs from 2 of those families, the Perez and Fantasio families. She lists the ancestor dogs in her book. These dogs can also be found in the Havanese Gallery and the ancestors of your dog can be discovered there. I have gone all the way back to the original dogs for my dogs' pedigrees and I use a database to keep all of that information together with photos of the ancestors.

Dorothy started a Havanese registry in 1974. At some point she and other Havanese owners formed a club and later, they elected to go with AKC, rather than the other registries.

Havanese were recognized as a breed by AKC in 1996.

Many of the Havanese in Europe came from the American originals.

Pattie
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattie View Post
This is a fun topic.

First, let me recommend a very good book for the history of Havanese, written by the lady who started Havanese in the US, Dorothy Goodale. Called "Havanese, A Complete and Reliable Handbook." Another good book is written by Zoila Portuondo of Cuba, that relates to Havanese History.

As Dorothy wrote about the origins of the Havanese, they probably originated in the Mediterranean area and were found in France, Italy and Spain hundreds of years ago. They were one of the five Bichon types of dogs, were originally white. Some historical writers of dogs in general, believed that the Havanese descended from the Maltese Another writer believed the Havanese traveled to Cuba during the Spanish empire. Some Cubans believe that the dog came to Cuba by way of Italian seamen and they were given as gifts to the wealthy Cuban aristrocracy.

Dorothy Goodale says that the first Havanese on record in the US were smuggled out of Cuba by their families who were fleeing the Revolutioin. She bought dogs from 2 of those families, the Perez and Fantasio families. She lists the ancestor dogs in her book. These dogs can also be found in the Havanese Gallery and the ancestors of your dog can be discovered there. I have gone all the way back to the original dogs for my dogs' pedigrees and I use a database to keep all of that information together with photos of the ancestors.

Dorothy started a Havanese registry in 1974. At some point she and other Havanese owners formed a club and later, they elected to go with AKC, rather than the other registries.

Havanese were recognized as a breed by AKC in 1996.

Many of the Havanese in Europe came from the American originals.
This is a bit of the topic. I recently looked up Havanese Maltese mix breed. I looked it up because I keep thinking my Maddie looks like a Maltese with Havanese coloring . Maddie is only 8 lbs and small . I was thinking I would see really cute dogs. What I saw was dogs with underbids and some other teeth problems. the heads looked odd to me too.I don't know why I'm writing this I just found it interesting. Maybe the ones I saw were really not pure Maltese Havanese mix.
Pattie in your spar time I think you could be a writer!

Maddie at 5mo old
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 10:15 AM
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Here is a web site that a lot of us use to look up pedigrees, http://www.havanesegallery.hu/index_en.php

Most all of my dogs came from Europe, at least the ones that I didn't breed myself

Heather

Caché Havanese
"What Lies Behind Us And What Lies Before Us
Are Tiny Matters Compared To What Lies Within Us."



Here are some links to help educate yourself in how to fight for your rights to continue to own and love your animals. Please do not be mislead by PETA or HSUS who is PETA in suits.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 11:12 AM
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Annabelle is 1/2 American breeding going back seven generations to Mrs. Goodale's Havana"s Doll House Breeding of Silver Tiger and Rags Girl. The other half is Hungarian Massivus breeding which I have only three generations back. I can find pictures of most of her American ancestors in Havanese books we currently use as reference. I have found pictures of some of her Massivus heritage on line. One day, I am going to put her pedigree with pictures together for myself to enjoy. She is one of the special joys of my life.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 11:23 AM
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Ruthann,

I think you can print out using Havanese Gallery a pedigree of your Annabelle with pictures. I know that at least some of the Massivus dogs, are registered on that site. Heather gave you the link to the Gallery in her post.

Pattie
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, that gallery is amazing, thank you! Soleil's oldest ancestors on record were all Cuban and both her parents came from Rag Doll with Cuban Trader.

I also read that Castro hated dogs and destroyed the registries in Cuba. What a shame. I wonder if some day they'll show up, having been hidden away all these years.

How far back to the Hungarian / European records go?

Think I'll have time to ponder these questions when I get my girl home? lol
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 02:23 PM
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My answers below are in red, and are just from my memory without checking to verify dates, but they are pretty close if not exact.

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Originally Posted by Divaskychick View Post
I read recently that all the Havanese in the US come from eleven dogs that made it out of Cuba during the revolution. The registry was started by Dorothy Goodale in 1984. The original dogs she used came from two families that she bought them from. She said they came from Cuba based on what the people who sold them to her told her. These families could never be located. DNA research on a small number of Cuban dogs shows that Havanese share 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the Cubans. Remember, history depends on who it is written by. My entry above is simply the facts without factoring in beliefs that many have.

When did the AKC recognize the Havanese as a breed and how did anyone know they had a pure bred dog to start off with, unless they could trace their dog to one of the eleven? AKC accepted the breed in 1999. There has always been a parent club (split a couple of times) since soon after Dorothy Goodale started keeping the registry. She started several other breed registries. A parent club has to present the registry to AKC before they will accept it, and there are all sorts of requirements. There was much waling and knashing of teeth for years over the issue of presenting to AKC before it was ever aggreed to.

And how do we know those eleven were pure bred Havs? We, in fact, don't. It was all based on what we have been told. All "purebreds" have to start somewhere. They are considered "pure" when the breed registry is kept, and only dogs accepted into it can trace their pedigree all the way back to the first dogs in the registry. Some exceptions are made periodically. For instance, dogs from other countries' registries that are accepted by the registry (AKC). For instance, AKC recognizes Havanese accepted in the Canadian Kennel Club. CKC accepts dogs from Cuba, AKC does not. Cuban dogs are in the AKC registry that came in through Canada. So long story short, there are other lines in the breed that don't come from the original American Havanese. DNA research shows that Havanese have the most genetic diversity of any breeds studied for such. You can have a small group with large genetic diversity, just as easily as you can have a large group with small genetic diversity.

And I can see there are Havs in Europe - where did they come from and aren't any of their progeny in the US? Most of the lines in Europe, not necessarily including those that came from the Slavic countries, came from the US.

Since my pup comes with papers, presumably I will be able to trace her family back to when the AKC started issuing papers. Is there anyplace I can actually see the whole family tree? The pedigree can be traced back a lot farther than that.

LOL these are things I think about when I can't go to sleep...
We have 5 generations in our house, and we can trace every line back another 5 or 6 (or more-can't remember exactly) to the original American dogs.

Last edited by Tom King; 06-12-2011 at 02:26 PM.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 02:30 PM
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Tom,

The only small quibbles I have with a couple of your facts are that Dorothy published in her book that she began a registry for Havanese in 1974, not 1984 and AKC recognized Havanese in 1996, not 1999.

Pattie
LaMontaña Havanese
www.lamontanahavanese.com

Last edited by Pattie; 06-12-2011 at 02:30 PM. Reason: forgot a word
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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Ohhhh now I'm confused! Not sure what this means -

"DNA research on a small number of Cuban dogs shows that Havanese share 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the Cubans." So today's Havs are not Cuban Havs, even if you can trace back to Dorothy dogs?


Also, am I stepping into another conversation? What are you talking about here?
"Remember, history depends on who it is written by. My entry above is simply the facts without factoring in beliefs that many have."

I get the feeling there's a whole story I'm not aware of. Share please?
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