Breeding Chocolate with Chocolate? - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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Breeding Chocolate with Chocolate?

Hi,

I own a chocolate male Havanese and I was thinking about getting a chocolate female Havanese. I may breed the two together, and I was wondering if it's bad to breed a chocolate with a chocolate?

Thanks for your response!
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:51 PM
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I'll say is bad to breed them if you are doing it as an experiment. If your intentions are to become a Havanese Breeder, then I would document myself before getting any dog to breed.
Don't just do it because the pups will look cute or you can make money off them, there are LOTS of Health Tests that Reputable breeders do to their dogs before they even think of breeding them.

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Old 01-12-2012, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
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I understand that, and I've been breeding for many years now. I was thinking about adding another female (and retiring one of mine). This female is chocolate parti. Some people say don't breed chocolate to chocolate, and I was wondering if anyone has bred chocolate to chocolate. I don't want to mess up my reputation by doing the wrong thing.
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:23 PM
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I don't have the answer. I think I remember reading that there was question about the chocolates and their structure for breeding. I think maybe some have health issues. i wish I could remember exactly what I read. I am also pretty sure the Silk Dog breeders don't even have Chocolate as a color. Maybe it's due to health reasons?





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Old 01-12-2012, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks.

Does anyone else know about breeding chocolates to chocolates?

Thanks again for the responses.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:31 PM
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I'm not exactly sure what the answer is but isn't chocolate is a recessive gene in the Havanese? So if chocolate is recessive and you breed two dogs that have an expressed recessive gene I imaine you are taking a huge risk with the health of the puppies. You may want to study a bit on genetics and the genetic health of your chocolates' family trees. Who knows what else the dogs are carrying and then putting two recessives together, I wouldn't feel comfortable about it without knowing more. Try reaching out to a reputable breeder that has chocolates or specializes in chocolates.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litlone21 View Post
Hi,

I own a chocolate male Havanese and I was thinking about getting a chocolate female Havanese. I may breed the two together, and I was wondering if it's bad to breed a chocolate with a chocolate?

Thanks for your response!
Breeding color is always risky. I think it takes a long line study and much knowledge to breed, period. And it takes a much longer time and knowledge to breed colors together. Where did you get your first chocolate, does that breeder have chocolates and will they help you? Actually I would be very careful of breeding now, this breed has become so popular and there are so many people who do not really know what they are doing breeding them that it is difficult and expensive if you unwittingly breed two dogs together who have the same problems..
If you are sincere in wanting to breed for color, I would suggest you start by in depth research on color...some of it is fun like the McKay's site, but most of it is very detailed and intense...of course keep in mind you also need to be able to look at and identify the good points your dog and the other dog have along with the bad ones...physically. But the more difficult part is being able to know what is behind both dogs genetically...

If your dog came from a breeder who will help you that is great..

Reputation of a breeder comes through many years of hard work, but you are right, if your puppies are not healthy and well, or the color promised, you will get many complaints...funny how bad news travels faster than good news..but true. So you are right in worrying about your reputation...
Do you know the old saying "When you are ready the teacher will appear!"? You have asked some good questions, now look further for the answers. There will be someone who will guide you...it is a process not a quick solution. Good Luck
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Old 01-13-2012, 04:13 PM
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With any trait, simply being recessive doesn't make it a bad thing. Any trait can be hidden in a large population by being recessive. As an example, say you want to breed 35 degree laid back shoulders (which was at one time considered (probably still is)a recessive simply because you didn't see many of them), but few dogs in a population show it. Once you get one with that much layback, the breeder breeds that dog, and keeps only ones with equal layback for breeding. At some point when both parents carry both copies for that shoulder, it is no longer recessive.

The same goes for coat types. We had dogs that were carrying one copy of curly and didn't know it. Only after the DNA test became available, were we able to be assured that we would not breed a curly coated dog. We had produced a few curly dogs, but before the DNA test, we could only not breed the same pair again who produced a curly. Now we can know before we even keep one for our breeding program. Curly was at one time recessive.

There are some genetic tests for color now. We haven't even bothered to look at what they are doing. We have only stayed away from Chocolate, because we didn't want the dilute pigment in our line.

I don't remember seeing any kind of a Havanese study that took into consideration including Chocolate. Probably the only information available is from someone who has specifically bred for it. If you can find someone who has produced a good number of offspring across several generations, and has kept up with the puppies, that will be your best source of information.
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Last edited by Tom King; 01-13-2012 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Litlone21 View Post
I understand that, and I've been breeding for many years now. I was thinking about adding another female (and retiring one of mine). This female is chocolate parti. Some people say don't breed chocolate to chocolate, and I was wondering if anyone has bred chocolate to chocolate. I don't want to mess up my reputation by doing the wrong thing.
My friend a Havanese breeder for over twenty years just bread her chocolate girl to a chocolate male. Both the male and female have to have that gene in order to produce a chocolate off spring. I wounder why someone would say you shouldn't I don't see what difference it would make. What I don't understand about chocolates is some are white or cream to me that is not chocolate.Why because their noses are brown do they still call them chocolates. Now that I think about it her litter didn't produce any chocolates and she actually flew to another state for the breeding.
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