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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-17-2012, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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Welcome Carol (CarolWCamelo)

I just wanted to welcome Carol to the forum. She sort of snuck in the back door, and some of us might have missed her. LOL We are lucky to have her expertise here to share. Although she refuses to call herself an expert, I tend to disagree. I would love for you Carol to tell us more about yourself and give us a perspective of dog training in less than a thousand words. LOL. I know that might be difficult with so much to tell . I'd like for you to touch on two topics , 1. punishment and 2. Dominance . Your versions are as good as any I've ever read.
We're lucky to have you on board, and we look forward to sharing and learning with you.

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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-17-2012, 08:17 PM
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Carol? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

Welcome to the forum!

Kathie, Abby & McGee's Mom
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-17-2012, 09:20 PM
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I thought she sounded a little smarter then the average bear! She writes very eloquently! Come on Carol! Enlighten us!

Stacey, Yogi (Gerty), and Baby Boo
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-17-2012, 11:10 PM
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We want some knowledge! Carol, we know you are here somewhere!



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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-18-2012, 12:36 AM
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Arrow Camellias and such-like

What a surprise! Hey, thanks for all the nice welcomes!

Really, I am NOT an expert. I do have a pretty solid background on basic training and living with dogs of various sorts. My attention is on - the dogs!

What a surprise, yes? No, hardly!

You can get an idea about me from here:

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/vkkdebunk.php

That starts with a bunch of my typical nonsense (I'm wildly self-indulgent about this stuff) - yet there are grains of truth in there, as well as grains and tablespoons of salt - but what if it's sugar?

You can get an idea of my background here:

http://www.coherentdog.org/arc2006/about.htm

And about dogs, I have a links page where I put stuff I think is particularly helpful when we want to understand our dogs.

http://www.coherentdog.org/links.php

So, that should be more than a sufficient introduction to me. Now, what I find especially interesting and fun is - the dogs themselves.

Learning REALLY to listen to them, on their own terms, is quite a time-consuming activity - but what a JOYFUL one!

And THAT is what I'm finding on this delightful forum - so many of you have such exquisite observations about your dogs. And its good to have so many photos, and some videos as well.

The trick, of course, is that business about working with the DOG'S terms. Personally, I always learn by hindsight. And I can be slow to learn, too; suddenly, one day, some kind of realization dawns on me, after I've done a lot of observing, with the effect:

Oh! So THAT'S it!

Turid Rugaas really is inspiring; anybody who can should go see one of her seminars.

Then I think also, some crucial works are the book by the Coppingers, mentioned on my links page, and Alexandra Semyonova's work - which is somewhat controversial, and I don't necessarily agree with every word she wrote therel ON THE OTHER HAND, anyone who reads that book in good faith can get a tremendous sense of what our dogs are telling us.

So, using Turid's teachings to learn to see the calming signals dogs use, Semyonova to help with entry into dog-thinking and behavior - and - Coppingers to comprehend development in dogs and its significance and effect - seems to me to give anyone a pretty decent background in dog-behavior. Enough so we have a fair chance of understanding our dogs better than we used to.

Dave - there are some excellent articles on dominance on the web, too, and I'll try to look them up later, and post them. I get fairly tired these days, as I'm Rather Olde now, and always, Camellia gets my first attention and care, simply, because she is a dog who has needs that need to be met; ha!

I'll say, though, that Kwali was my first true trainer in learning how to live with a dog without even saying "No.' One NO to Kwali, when she became my dog, would have pushed her right over the brink into total breakdown. Camellia can thank Kwali for my learnings that made it possible for me to take Camellia! Who was planted in the sun, when she should have been planted in the shade!

As for Camellia, though she's now thoroughly house-trained, she WANTS me to go out with her when she does her business in the yard - especially, after dark. So we've just been out together, luckily, between showers, and we didn't get wet.

Back later - going for some sleep now. Camellia is looking at me, from Her Sofa, saying, Mummy, it's bedtime - when are you going to bed? And when I do, and get the light turned out - it's fifty-fifty whether she'll call me back out again, or settle without calling me! She prefers sleeping on the sofa to sleeping on Our Bed, as, likely, I shake the bed when I toss and turn!

She's a lovely, sensitive soul! And a sweet one, despite her atrocious behavior toward other dogs.

P.S. A lot of people here are experts of sorts and don't realize it. When you know your dogs well, you are experts on them. That's useful knowledge to have - especially when working with vets or trainers.

Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:31:50 (PST)

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-18-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolWCamelo View Post
I'll say, though, that Kwali was my first true trainer in learning how to live with a dog without even saying "No.' One NO to Kwali, when she became my dog, would have pushed her right over the brink into total breakdown. Camellia can thank Kwali for my learnings that made it possible for me to take Camellia! Who was planted in the sun, when she should have been planted in the shade!
Hi Carol, it is SO nice to have you here!!! I've really been enjoying poking around your site.

I have come to the dog world late in life, but not to the world of training animals. I have trained, shown horses in dressage, jumpers and combined training (as well as taught PEOPLE) for close to 40 years. Then RA did my joints in to the point where riding is not an option. (though I still have my last, wonderful show horse, who is rising 20 and still teaching children the ropes, both in the show ring and out) Though I had to give up riding, I needed a "training partner"... Enter Kodi, the non-human "love of my life".

What you said about "never saying NO" really struck a chord. Just the other day, we were practicing with my instructor for what we hope to be the last leg of our Novice CDSP Obedience title. (tomorrow) In the recall over the jump, he is USUALLY fine, but if the "judge" uses an enthusiastic voice, he sometimes breaks and runs toward me before I signal him. We were proofing this, and he broke. In an effort to stop him before he reached the jump, I yelled a very loud "STAY!!!" I don't think there was any anger in my voice... I WASN'T angry. But he is not even used to me raising my voice this way. He stopped in his tracks, and I re-set him to try again. when I signaled him to come, he came dashing up and jumped on me, something he rarely does. I really think I scared him when I yelled like that, and he was SO relieved that I "let" him come to me, that he couldn't help jumping for joy. It really reminded me what incredible soft dogs these are, and that you need to be SO gentle with them in training.


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Last edited by krandall; 02-18-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-18-2012, 11:00 AM
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Welcome carol, I enjoyed reading a bit about you. Your childhood is one I can totally relate too. All except being able to bring my dog to school!.

Maddie at 5mo old
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-18-2012, 11:47 AM
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Arrow distortions of yelling, PollyAnnas!

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Originally Posted by krandall View Post
Hi Carol, it is SO nice to have you here!!! I've really been enjoying poking around your site.

I have come to the dog world late in life, but not to the world of training animals. I have trained, shown horses in dressage, jumpers and combined training (as well as taught PEOPLE) for close to 40 years. Then RA did my joints in to the point where riding is not an option. (though I still have my last, wonderful show horse, who is rising 20 and still teaching children the ropes, both in the show ring and out) Though I had to give up riding, I needed a "training partner"... Enter Kodi, the non-human "love of my life".

What you said about "never saying NO" really struck a chord. Just the other day, we were practicing with my instructor for what we hope to be the last leg of our Novice CDSP Obedience title. (tomorrow) In the recall over the jump, he is USUALLY fine, but if the "judge" uses an enthusiastic voice, he sometimes breaks and runs toward me before I signal him. We were proofing this, and he broke. In an effort to stop him before he reached the jump, I yelled a very loud "STAY!!!" I don't think there was any anger in my voice... I WASN'T angry. But he is not even used to me raising my voice this way. He stopped in his tracks, and I re-set him to try again. when I signaled him to come, he came dashing up and jumped on me, something he rarely does. I really think I scared him when I yelled like that, and he was SO relieved that I "let" him come to me, that he couldn't help jumping for joy. It really reminded me what incredible soft dogs these are, and that you need to be SO gentle with them in training.
What a great and instructive story this is. I love it.

My experience with horses is nearly nil, though I used to feed, water, and curry one for a neighbor when I was in my teens. But I have friends who are deeply into horses - a niece in New Zealand is, too; both work some on dressage, and I think that's fascinating.

About yeling: one time I had Kwali and Kumbi on the long, large beach, very early in the morning, and as I often did, with nobody around but us, I let them off-leash.

A truck came along the service path that parallels the beach, and both Kwali and Kumbi ran to give chase. I had been working on recall, as I do with all my dogs (even Camellia has a passable recall; it's the only real training I've done with her, as she's too stressed to do much training right now).

As the dogs got near the service path, I YELLED: "COME!"

No response. Why not? Yikes!

It was my YELLING! Surely my "Come!" didn't sound as it usually does. So now, I try to pay attention to just how I'm using my voice! This can be difficult in an emergency situation; wow; the control we have to muster in ourselves can be quite something to achieve!

I think dogs do - without question - detect urgency in our voices - but what is that urgency going to produce in the doG? That is a big question to consider!

I'm sorry about your RA, which I assume is rheumatoid arthritis. A truly miserable and difficult condition. And having to give up riding has to be really rough for a person with your background and experience.

Of course, I see you are like most everybody I've met on this forum - resilient, able to cope with what life hands us. And continuing to grow in perception and experience, despite the difficulties. Maybe most here are PollyAnnas, like me - it's a good way to be

It's pouring out. Camellia is NOT INTERESTED in going for our morning walk. She is, very philosophically, resting on Her Sofa. She will need to go out sometime around noon, if not before. I'm trusting she'll signal to me, probably by dancing! - when she really needs to go out - and I'll hastily put on a jacket and hat, and accompany her outdoors. She still needs that kind of reassurance.

I am so grateful to Kwali, and Kumbi too, for their Predecessorship, in helping me learn how to work with their Successor and beneficiary, Camellia.

Meantime, I have more time here this morning than I might otherwise have had!

And like most here, I have the delights of the company of a Havanese, which I believe is an endless blessing.

Sat, 18 Feb 2012 09:43:59 (PST)

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-18-2012, 12:26 PM
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Hi Carol, yes, RA is Rheumatoid Arthritis. I am usually a pretty positive person, but for the first couple of years, especially when it became apparent that I really wasn't going to be able to keep riding, I became depressed for the first time in my life. Kodi has changed all that. He gave me a new direction, someone new to learn about, (there are similarities between working with dogs and horses but also a LOT of difference between working with a predator and a prey animal!) and a reason to take a walk every day, whether my joints hurt or not!

I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who take on "damaged" dogs, but I am also glad, that as a first-time dog owner, I was lucky enough to find one who got the right start in life and has an incredible work ethic. This is a boy who has needed a "job" since the day I got him. I'm sure he would be happy with jobs other than competition, but he WOULDN'T be happy without a job. His innate herding instinct is amazing. Our neighbors have chickens that often get loose and onto our property. From the time he was a puppy, with no encouragement from me he would round up (NOT "chase") the chickens, send them all back into their pen, then trot back to me with a "job well done" look on his face!

I read your article about the woman with the sight hound that had been shock trained for obedience. The training center I go to allows no aversive training, and it makes me very sad when I see dogs being snapped and yanked on their way into the ring. We do do AKC events, and do well in them, but my preferred venues are APDT and CDSP, where this kind of treatment of the dogs is not tolerated. (and, of course, it's hard to train an agility dog using aversive methods... you just make them slow)

I love "playing" with my buddy on a challenging course at a show. But if he were to give me any indication that he wasn't enjoying it too, we would leave. In fact, we did, in the middle of his second run at our very first APDT trial. He started stopping and scratching. I turned to the judge, explained that it was his very first show, and that I wanted to end on a good note. I asked her if I could excuse myself and finish the rest of the course with cookies. She not only let me, but told me that I had made the right decision. Kodi bounced around the rest of the course, having a ball as I rewarded his every move.

Other people here have seen this video, but this is what he looks like in competition now. He really does enjoy it!

http://youtu.be/bEBze7uoZOk

I just wanted to point out that although there are dogs who are "forced' into competitive situations, there are also other dogs and handlers who look forward to spending weekends with all their doggy friends, "playing" around the courses. I will also note that just before the above performance, he and I took a long of-leash romp in the woods with a fellow competitor and her two flat coated retrievers. So we do enjoy each other's company in multiple ways!


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-18-2012, 12:36 PM
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Arrow taking dogs to school - kid-school

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Originally Posted by Suzi View Post
Welcome carol, I enjoyed reading a bit about you. Your childhood is one I can totally relate too. All except being able to bring my dog to school!.
As I think about it now, it's not something Id do any more nor let a child do. That was a long time ago, with far less development than is general now, and it can be risky for dog and for child. But it was really nice, when I was a child - so very many years ago now - except in my brain; haha!

Sat, 18 Feb 2012 10:36:30 (PST)

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