How to stop puppy mills? - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 08:30 AM Thread Starter
Michele and Sergio
 
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How to stop puppy mills?

Hi, I have a question and an observation.

I found this forum during an internet search looking for a breeder of a Havanese. I found a site that had photos of Havanese online, offering to ship a dog. After a few replies on this forum, I educated myself about the breed and made what I felt was the best choice in dog/pet/fur baby for my home by purchasing an older dog from the home of a reputable breeder.

I probably would have tried for a rescue. However, just an observation, some forum members have even commented that rescue dogs tend to go to pet parents who already have a dog in the home, or those who are retired, those who volunteer with the rescue organization, or those who have owned at least one pet. I felt like I would have to complete mounds of paperwork and wait a lengthy amount of time for a rescue Havanese, so I chose to purchase my dog from a breeder I researched and met in their home.

While there is a banner on this forum to stop puppy mills and to support rescue, I've noticed that there is also a great deal of "enabling" in the form of support offered to forum members who purchase their dogs from breeders not meeting the criteria listed in the "red flags". They ship dogs; they return or exchange dogs; they clearly aren't reputable breeders.

So, my question is, how are we stopping puppy mills when we don't confront forum members when they purchase puppies from these breeders or from a box in a car parking lot? I guess I just don't see how telling someone that their dogs are cute or you like the dog's coloring or you just like pictures is being supportive of stopping puppy mills.

We pass judgment on each other with comments about how we feed our dogs, how we vaccinate (when sometimes our state laws require it), how we administer meds, how we train our dogs, etc., yet we don't seem to confront the issue of bad breeding. Why?
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 09:06 AM
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Michele,

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly_DC View Post
...So, my question is, how are we stopping puppy mills when we don't confront forum members when they purchase puppies from these breeders or from a box in a car parking lot?
I don't think my 'JOB' here is to confront anyone, mind you, I am not shy and most often tell it like it is, but I am not going to judge the decision of anyone that buys a puppy from a "not so reputable breeder". The best we can do is "Educate" the public about making the right decision, ultimately, is up to them what to do.
My own sister purchased her Havanese from the mall store. Why? Because it was a lot less money than buying from a breeder and all she could afford at the time. I explained to her the whole Puppy Mill thing but I can’t make decisions for her.


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…I guess I just don't see how telling someone that their dogs are cute or you like the dog's coloring or you just like pictures is being supportive of stopping puppy mills.
Tell me, when a woman marries an ugly as hell man, who can’t keep a job and drinks every night until he passes out on the couch and have a kid who doesn’t have the Brad Pitt’s Looks, but is a cute kid.
Do you tell the woman, **** Girl, your kid is Fugly! Or do you just admit that is not the kid’s fault that his father is a PoS?

Is really not the dog’s fault that the owner didn’t or couldn’t buy a perfect dog, again, insert her the part where we can educate the public but can’t force them to make the right decision.


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We pass judgment on each other with comments about how we feed our dogs, how we vaccinate (when sometimes our state laws require it), how we administer meds, how we train our dogs, etc., yet we don't seem to confront the issue of bad breeding. Why?
I don't think we pass judgment on how we feed or vaccinate our dogs, I think we each voice our experience and opinions. And when members ask about puppy mills we bring facts to the table.

Keep in mind that most cases that we see here, come to the Forum with a Puppy already, they can’t just put the dog in a bag and trash it, at that point is too late to do anything other than educate them for their next decision when it comes to getting a pet.

Zury

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 10:01 AM
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Here in my country puppy mills are not such a big problem. es thera are some, but bigger problem is smuggling puppies from other coutries and falsifying pedigrees. Selling dogs and cats in pet shops is ILLEGAL here so ther eis no safe market for puppy mill pups.
Man I know from dog park took his samoyed puppy from BYB and his motivation was to save that pup's life. She was fitlhy, full of fleas and worms, unvaccinated... Now she is healthy, happy and very beutifull dog with great character. My cousin's poodle is also saved from one back yard. She is great dog. I think we should not discriminate. I would rather take poor naglected pup out from mill or back yard then think about how he/she died in pain and misery!
Sometimes things can go very wrong even with reputable breeders. They might have best intentions but since you are dealing with living beings some bad and unpredictable things can happen. I know the case of a pup born form international multichampion parents with perfect lineages. People paid loads of money for Luna (retriver). By the age of two she was deaf and blind, had epileptic seizures, hip displasia, IBD and tyroid cancer... She died when she was two and half.
Kennel Club in my country takes a lot of care and the take away licences from some breeders.
Havanese breed has VERY small and limited genetic pool (from 11 dogs that emigrated from Cuba with their owners). Since demand for hav pups is growing daily we can expect that things could go wrong and that havs worldwide will have more and more genetic diseases. Just ten years ago breed was extremely helathy and with no herditary diseases. Now things are getting worse!
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 10:11 AM
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Excellent response by Zury!

I will add... why would anyone want to come to this forum if all they are gonna get is abuse for not getting their dog the perfect way?

Many come here for sharing, learning, and common ground.


Nicki, Cassie, & Roo
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Carefulove View Post
Keep in mind that most cases that we see here, come to the Forum with a Puppy already, they can’t just put the dog in a bag and trash it, at that point is too late to do anything other than educate them for their next decision when it comes to getting a pet.
This. Once the puppy is home, there isn't much point in scolding, and most people that got their puppy from less than ideal locations likely weren't reading the forum beforehand. I think almost anyone that reads the forum will take away the fact that a bargain "Havanese" shipped to their door will most likely end up being more expensive than a well-bred and well-raised Havanese puppy from a reputable breeder due to possible long term health issues and potentially behavioral issues if the poor guy experienced mistreatment.

I will agree that rescuing a dog can difficult if you do not fit the "ideal" pet home as determined by a specific organization or person reviewing your application (reminded me of this article: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/h...uisition_.html). Clearly, they have good intentions and have seen many ill-suited adopters return dogs after a short time. In my experience, breeders seem to be a bit more flexible. Perhaps because they take more time to get to know prospective pet parents and you're making a significant monetary investment in your pup - so you're serious.

Plus, a breed like the Havanese is, thankfully, not super-popular right now - so there are fewer rescued dogs out there (than say Chihuahua's after that movie) and thus harder to find a rescue in general - regardless of whether you're considered a great fit or not. If you take a look at HRI, there might not be any rescued dogs in your state. That's not a bag thing!
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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 10:48 AM
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You're all right! I think a main purpose of this forum is to help owners and their dogs, regardless of where the dogs were obtained. I really think anyone who is welcomed here and helped here will learn from all of us. I'm sure I have read posts, possibly many of them from people who obtained their first dog in not the best way but went on to learn and do better the next time. If someone is shunned, a learning opportunity is lost.
That being said, it upsets me to see people buy from pet stores. I won't patronize any store that sells puppies. I can't believe there are people that don't know where they actually come from.
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 11:55 AM
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I remember when someone would join the forum and introduce their 'new puppy' and would basically get reemed for unknowingly doing something wrong (a lot of people just don't KNOW that pet stores get their dogs from puppy mills) Heck, I didn't know that. When I grew up, people used to buy dogs on the side of the road, I'm pretty sure my mom found a few of her many, many pets, cats and dogs this way, especially cats..I recall 3 or 4 cats from road vendors, granted..this was back in 1970's-1980's and their was no such thing as Animal Rights Activists back then.

Fast forward to today, and this is just *my* opinion, I think we can help educate people to NOT support them, but personally, I don't see the point of attacking or criticizing the people who've made a mistake and already fallen in love with their dog. Hopefully, if they get dog #2, they will have learned something here about not unknowingly supporting these places I think a lot of the world is just not really aware that getting a dog from a newspaper is doing anything wrong and of course they'd always get upset at the criticizing and leave and never come back.

I think there is a polite way to educate people without making them feel like their dog is inferior, or they have committed a crime, or they aren't welcome here because they didn't get their dog from a reputable breeder. I would like to see everyone get their dog from a reputable breeder, but that is never gonna happen because the only chance we stand with that is to help those who are here looking for a breeder and haven't already found and purchased from another place.

Ya know, I wish there wasn't war...and crime and hunger in this world too and we do what we can do to help those that want the help, but I know you've probably also seen some of us try to steer people away from certain breeders and they completely ignore us and go with the shady one.. what can you do? ..but hope that we can at least get through to SOME of the people . I think once you start criticizing or offend someone, they shut down and aren't open to what you are trying to communicate..

Kara
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 12:02 PM
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Kara,
You are so right. I remember feeling so badly for the folks who would come on here innocently showing pics of their new pups and asking for info. They would get so jumped and attacked and then just run off.
The atmosphere now is much more welcoming to those who have bought puppies from places we know aren't too good.
Hope we keep it that way. All we can do is continue educating people about buying from a reputable breeder.

Nan
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv3havs View Post
The atmosphere now is much more welcoming to those who have bought puppies from places we know aren't too good.
Hope we keep it that way. All we can do is continue educating people about buying from a reputable breeder.
Why don't you post the names of the breeders that you know aren't too good and explain why they aren't reputable breeders?
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 01:05 PM
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Michele,

There are threads here that explain what to look for and what to avoid when choosing a breeder.

Why should we list names of who is bad, or for that matter, who is good?

We are all adults here, everyone capable of making their own decisions. The information is there up for grabs, is up to each individual to make an educated decision like you and many other have done.

Zury

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