Emmie's Pedigree - Is She Inbred? - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
MarinaGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,216
Submit Photo: 7
Photo Submissions 49 Times in 49 Posts
Emmie's Pedigree - Is She Inbred?

Emmie's Dam and Sire:

Pedigree of CH Amor Sara Alejandra At Sweet Water
http://www.havanesegallery.hu/pedigree_en.php?id=28661
  • COI = 7.81%
  • LGD=100% (32/32)
  • AM CAN INTL MEX CH Starkette Pride of Wincroft ROMX: 7.8125%

Pedigree of CH Marcosa's One Hot Angel At Hermosa
http://www.havanesegallery.hu/pedigree_en.php?id=28371
  • COI = 23.44%
  • LGD=62.5% (32/20)
  • CH Pillowtalk's Tiziano ROM: 12.5%
  • DTCH Pillowtalk's Andiamo: 3.90625%
  • DTJCH DTCH Pillowtalk's Jambalaya DT.CH,DT.JUG.CH: 3.125%
  • FCH Flamenco de La Pointe Du Cours: 2.34375%
  • Pillowtalk's Elena Blanca: 1.5625%

It looks like her PATERNAL GRANDPARENTS are half-siblings as their sire is CH Pillowtalk's Tiziano ROM. Does this mean she's inbred?

- Jeanne

Last edited by MarinaGirl; 04-23-2013 at 10:34 AM.
MarinaGirl is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 11:11 AM
Metrowest, MA
 
krandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 23,522
Submit Photo: 6
Photo Submissions 296 Times in 294 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarinaGirl View Post
Emmie's Dam and Sire:

Pedigree of CH Amor Sara Alejandra At Sweet Water
http://www.havanesegallery.hu/pedigree_en.php?id=28661
  • COI = 7.81%
  • LGD=100% (32/32)
  • AM CAN INTL MEX CH Starkette Pride of Wincroft ROMX: 7.8125%

Pedigree of CH Marcosa's One Hot Angel At Hermosa
http://www.havanesegallery.hu/pedigree_en.php?id=28371
  • COI = 23.44%
  • LGD=62.5% (32/20)
  • CH Pillowtalk's Tiziano ROM: 12.5%
  • DTCH Pillowtalk's Andiamo: 3.90625%
  • DTJCH DTCH Pillowtalk's Jambalaya DT.CH,DT.JUG.CH: 3.125%
  • FCH Flamenco de La Pointe Du Cours: 2.34375%
  • Pillowtalk's Elena Blanca: 1.5625%

It looks like her PATERNAL GRANDPARENTS are half-siblings as their sire is CH Pillowtalk's Tiziano ROM. Does this mean she's inbred?

- Jeanne
I think you'd need someone a lot more experienced than either Marina or me to twll you that. Hopefully Tom King or one of the other breeders on the forum can speak intelligently to this.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)






krandall is offline  
post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 11:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Sparkle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: KY
Posts: 642
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 3 Times in 3 Posts
OMG Marina! Kallie & Emmie are related! Kallie's daddy is Marcosa's One Hot Angel at Hermosa! I do know that Marcosa is a very reputable breeder. We got Kallie from Hermosa Havanese, who co-owns daddy w/Marcosa. Not sure who Emmie's mama is. Or what breeder you got her from. But it was explained to me that at one point, line breeding was done to bring out the best characteristics. I asked this same question on this forum before we got Kallie. Google line breeding & you'll get a lot of information. Pillowtalk dogs have an impeccable breeding background.

Someone else chime in here if I'm stating this all wrong!

Pat - AKA Kallie's & Abby's mom
Sparkle is offline  
 
post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
MarinaGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,216
Submit Photo: 7
Photo Submissions 49 Times in 49 Posts
Pat - How exciting that Kallie and Emmie are related!! Emmie is from a breeder in Louisville; she bred her champion show dog once before spaying her and keeping one of the puppies. She and her husband are also the nicest people on the planet. I think Emmie is the spitting image of her dad, Marcosa's One Hot Angel at Hermosa, "Castiel."

-Jeanne
MarinaGirl is offline  
post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 01:41 PM
Senior Member
 
Sparkle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: KY
Posts: 642
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 3 Times in 3 Posts
Castiel is such a sweetheart! Just love him to pieces. If I'm not mistaken, the lady in Louisville was a part owner of Castiel at one time also. I do know she had him for a while. He's back in Cincinnati @ Hermosa Hav. now. Kallie's breeder has her mommy & Castiel both now. Kallie looks exactly like Cas's mommy "Fancee", Marcosa's Officially in Style. So I guess that makes Emmie & Kallie half-sisters! How on earth did you get her with you being in Seattle? That's quite a distance!

I've been worried about Emmie, checking back on your thread. Guess now I have a genuine reason to follow up on her! Please keep me updated on her progress!

Pat - AKA Kallie's & Abby's mom
Sparkle is offline  
post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 02:06 PM
Senior Member
 
Sparkle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: KY
Posts: 642
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 3 Times in 3 Posts
On the Havanese Gallery links that Jeanne posted above for Emmie's parents, I went to the F.A.Q. section. Here is what is stated about COI & LGD. The last paragraph is most important.

Direct quote: What does COI and LGD mean? Inbreeding informations.
COI is short for Coefficient Of Inbreeding. Havanese Gallery uses Hardiman's method to calculate COI (more info: http://www.highflyer.supanet.com/coefficient.htm). An example just for comparison: COI is 25% when you breed full siblings together - the value is 12.5% for the grandsire and the granddam too. COI is always calculated by the number of the displayed generations in the pedigree. If the pedigree is not complete, COI is calculated by the known ancestors - of course in this case it is not the real COI of the dog but this value could only be higher if the pedigree would bee complete. Amennyiben az adott törzskönyv minden felmenőt tartalmazna, ez az érték csak növekedhetne, alacsonyabb semmiképpen nem lehet.
LGD is short for "Last Generation Diversity". This value tells you the ratio between the number of the positions of the last generation of the pedigree and the number of the different ancestors in the last generation of the pedigree. For example, if you get the LGD=90% (60/54, 4 unknown) value for a 6 generation pedigree, it means the following: there are 4 unknown ancestors in the last (6th) generation. They cannot be used for the calculations so the maximum number of the possible different dogs in the last generation of this pedigree is 60 (64-4). The number of the different dogs in the last generation is 54 so it gives you the value of 90%. I know that my English is not good enough to give you a better explanation of LGD but I'm sure you will understand it quickly if you check it with some 3 and 4 generations pedigrees.
To make it simple: the more inbred a dog is, the higher the value of COI and the lower the value of LGD.
IMPORTANT: inbreeding values can be important for breeders. If you are not a breeder and do not really understand what inbreeding and linebreeding is all about, please ignore this information. Don't panic if you see your beloved pet has a quite high inbreeding coefficient - it does not necessarily mean bad at all!!!

Pat - AKA Kallie's & Abby's mom
Sparkle is offline  
post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 03:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Sparkle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: KY
Posts: 642
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 3 Times in 3 Posts
I'm not trying to stop others from joining in this discussion. And Jeanne is asking for opinions. Goodness knows, she needs our support right now. Emmie's going thru a lot. Sorry if I've overstepped my boundries.

Pat - AKA Kallie's & Abby's mom
Sparkle is offline  
post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
MarinaGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,216
Submit Photo: 7
Photo Submissions 49 Times in 49 Posts
I'm so excited that Emmie has a half-sister because her 4 littermates were all boys. She was the runt of the litter but she was also the most confident and brave of the 5. The saga on how I ended up getting a puppy in Kentucky is that I had some other puppies fall through on the West Coast; I walked away from a few breeders because I suspected they were Back Yard Breeders. (This all happened before I found this forum.) I researched some more and then found Emmie's breeder online and started talking to her about Sara & Castiel's litter. I flew out to Louisville to meet the breeder and the puppies before making a decision and once I got there I fell in love with Miss Emmie, my little Southern Belle! I met Emmie at 7.5 weeks old and then flew back again when she was 11 weeks old to take her back to Seattle. Three of the boys went to homes in Kentucky and Tennessee and the fourth one stayed with the breeder in Louisville. All of the puppies look a lot like their sire – black with white markings. The only way to tell Emmie from her brothers is that she does not have white on her front paws; instead, she has a little white on her 2 back paws but since I keep her feet clipped fairly short those markings aren’t that obvious.

Pat - I'm so glad you told me about Kallie's connection to Emmie. It definitely puts a smile on my face and I will now pay special attention to updates and pictures of Kallie.

-Jeanne
MarinaGirl is offline  
post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 04:53 PM
Senior Member
 
atsilvers27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bergen County NJ
Posts: 851
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 12 Times in 12 Posts
If you do the trial breeding it comes to around 10% COI, which is healthy. 25% would mean a brother and sister offspring, but I've seen it as high as in the 40's BC the calculation is cumulative. I'm not an authority on the subject but it seems that healthy genes (for example, parents are both non-carriers of xyz genetic illness) can have more of an impact on the health of a dog than the breeding coi. A dog can have a breeding coefficient of 0% but if both parents are carriers the resulting offspring can be affected. This is why "designer" breeds can be very ill dogs but are marketed as having healthy "hybrid vigour".
atsilvers27 is offline  
post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 06:03 PM
Senior Member
 
Tom King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lake Gaston, N.C.
Posts: 3,098
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 21 Times in 21 Posts
There is no clear line drawn for what is inbreeding, and what is linebreeding. They're really the same subject with different dilutions and no real definitions by anyone. The "recommended" line not to cross is 15%. Some of the "best" show dogs ever had a VERY high COI.

To produce consistency, the higher the COI, the better. High COI doesn't necessarily mean a higher percentage of health problems. I don't think that any number stated of COI means much at all. It depends on what's back there in the line. We know of some dogs, and we won't talk about this publicly, that we only want on a pedigree once-puts the COI of known problems at 0%.

COI can work both ways. You can lock problems in, but you can also lock problems out.

The problem with most breeders is that they try a little of this, and a little of that, and then you don't know where problems come from.

The most important thing is to know as much as possible about as many of the dogs, and what they have produced, on the pedigree, as far back as possible.

Last edited by Tom King; 04-23-2013 at 06:06 PM.
Tom King is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome