HELP!!! Max refuses to be potty trained - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 6
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
Exclamation HELP!!! Max refuses to be potty trained

Hi everyone,
I am a new onwer (3 weeks now) to an awesome but thick skulled Hav named Max. Max is now 4.5 months old and refuses to learn potty and poop management. Before I go on my rant I want everyone to know that I have read "over and over" again all of the threads about potty training and how best to get the little one to abide by the house rules. I have pick a few out and have stuck to my guns but nothing seems to work.

Sooooooo, to say the least my little Max is quite the knuckle head when it comes to house training. Some examples of his issues are:

-I take him on a 20 minute walk every day after work and he will only pee outside. Only to come inside and poop on the floor. Regardless of my efforts it seems that he will do his duty without any warning signs.

-I take him outside constantly (every 20-30 mins) to go potty which he does and he will come right back in and either go potty or poop. As for a favorite spot, he does not care. He will go anywhere.

-At night while in his crate he will pee and poop 3-4 per night regardless of taking him out.

Those are just a few to name. I cannot trust him no matter where he is. I understand that he is young and it will take time, but after 3 weeks you would think he would understand that outside is where he needs to do his buisness. I also have tried the bell training, but Max thinks its a joke.

To give you a little more insight as to how our days work:

6am - I leave for work (at this time I get max out of his crate and take him outside to go potty (potty only because he refuses to go poop). At this time I always clean out his crate)

7-9am - My wife will get Max out to get a few hours of play in as well as take him out 3-4 times. She then leaves for work.

9am to 2 pm -Max is home in his crate with his brother Hercules who is fully potty trained and allowed to roam the home. This is the only time where Max usually will not have many accidents and I think it is because he has not eating for a while and has nothing to poop.

2-2:30 pm I arrive home and get max out of his crate and take him out. From this time on (untill around 9pm) I take Max out every 20-30 minutes. He normally during this time will go potty and on occasions go poop. DON'T misunderstand, I watch him like a hawk and he will still have 3-4 mess ups.

I usually will let Max free feed 3:30pm-6:30pm and will stop letting him drink water at 7pm. Please help. I don't know what to do. My patience is running thin.
CrazyMax is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 10:09 AM
Metrowest, MA
 
krandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 23,470
Submit Photo: 6
Photo Submissions 296 Times in 294 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyMax View Post
Hi everyone,
I am a new onwer (3 weeks now) to an awesome but thick skulled Hav named Max. Max is now 4.5 months old and refuses to learn potty and poop management. Before I go on my rant I want everyone to know that I have read "over and over" again all of the threads about potty training and how best to get the little one to abide by the house rules. I have pick a few out and have stuck to my guns but nothing seems to work.

Sooooooo, to say the least my little Max is quite the knuckle head when it comes to house training. Some examples of his issues are:

-I take him on a 20 minute walk every day after work and he will only pee outside. Only to come inside and poop on the floor. Regardless of my efforts it seems that he will do his duty without any warning signs.

-I take him outside constantly (every 20-30 mins) to go potty which he does and he will come right back in and either go potty or poop. As for a favorite spot, he does not care. He will go anywhere.

-At night while in his crate he will pee and poop 3-4 per night regardless of taking him out.

Those are just a few to name. I cannot trust him no matter where he is. I understand that he is young and it will take time, but after 3 weeks you would think he would understand that outside is where he needs to do his buisness. I also have tried the bell training, but Max thinks its a joke.

To give you a little more insight as to how our days work:

6am - I leave for work (at this time I get max out of his crate and take him outside to go potty (potty only because he refuses to go poop). At this time I always clean out his crate)

7-9am - My wife will get Max out to get a few hours of play in as well as take him out 3-4 times. She then leaves for work.

9am to 2 pm -Max is home in his crate with his brother Hercules who is fully potty trained and allowed to roam the home. This is the only time where Max usually will not have many accidents and I think it is because he has not eating for a while and has nothing to poop.

2-2:30 pm I arrive home and get max out of his crate and take him out. From this time on (untill around 9pm) I take Max out every 20-30 minutes. He normally during this time will go potty and on occasions go poop. DON'T misunderstand, I watch him like a hawk and he will still have 3-4 mess ups.

I usually will let Max free feed 3:30pm-6:30pm and will stop letting him drink water at 7pm. Please help. I don't know what to do. My patience is running thin.
First, you have to understand that on the puppy's part there IS no understanding at this point. It is all about developing good habits. The fact that Max doesn't HAVE any good habits at this stage makes me wonder about his upbringing before you brought him home. Did he come from a reputable breeder? If so, reputable breeders start their puppies on potty training as soon as the pups start to leave the whelping box. If your breeder did this, I would STRONGLY urge you to talk to the breeder and ask what you a re doing "wrong" (differently) that he is having such a hard time adjusting to potting at his new home.

If Max DIDN'T come from a breeder who gave him a good start on potty training, he probably has been allowed to pee and poop where ever he was, so that IS his habit. If that's the case, you a re going to have to keep him crated at all time except for when you KNOW he is "empty". That means that if you take him out and he doesn't poop (and you think he should need to) back in his crate he goes. Wait 20 minutes and take him out again. If he goes, he gets to stay out and play. Otherwise, it's back in the crate.

I understand that in the morning, this may be a problem, as you need to get to work. So if there isn't someone available to take him out on the 20 minute schedule, set him up in an ex-pen, with his crate in one end, and the rest of the ex-pen floor covered with pee pads. He will PROBABLY choose to eliminate outside of his bed. (it can help to elevate his crate by a couple of inches over the surrounding floor too, to give it more definition as his "den") Assuming that he gets reliable about NOT eliminating on his bedding, you can SLOWLY over a period of time, remove on pee pad at a time until he has only one "potty spot" in the ex-pen. You can give him this same set-up at night if he is currently soiling the bedding in the crate. With some puppies that have not been raised well, you may have to completely remove the bedding in the crate for a time. That usually stops them eliminating there… most prefer the soft surface of the pee pads.

It's your choice if you want to continue working on "outside only" potty training while you are home. Tom King, my breeder, and someone who has trained, literally, HUNDREDS of puppies, says that the people who have the worst time with potty training tend to be those who insist on "outside only" in the beginning. They ALL tend to reach a point where they prefer outside, without the owner really working on it. Then, if you want to maintain an indoor potty option (which I do, because we live in the "frozen north ) you have to really work on THAT piece!

We found this to be absolutely true with Kodi. He was completely reliable in an ex-pen with his crate and a litter box when we got him. We first worked on making sure he knew the "OK" places in the house. (litter boxes, never further away than in the same room with him to start with) Of course, we always praised him HIGHLY when he eliminated outdoors, but we never pushed it… our "training" was to get him to know where it was "OK" (and conversely, "not OK") in the house. When he was reliable with the litter box in the same room with him, we expanded to two rooms, then the whole down stairs… he was well over a year before we allowed him upstairs unsupervised. Some Havs are very hard to read in terms of potty "signals" (though I've watched Tom with young puppies, and he's AMAZING at seeing it coming! ) I have to admit that with Kodi, until he was close to 2 years old, he didn't have accidents, but I felt like I was "trained" to know his schedule, rather than him doing anything to let me know. We tried bells, and as smart as he is about other things, we failed "bell class" But then one day, seemingly out of nowhere, I heard this deep, gruff, "different" bark at the door… just a single bark. I wasn't sure what he meant, but he was sitting at the door, so I took him out. He IMMEDIATELY pooped! From that day on, that deep bark has become his "potty signal", and he is completely reliable about it. …Meaning I no longer have to worry about his schedule or guess when he "should" need to go out.

The important part is to find SOME way to get it through to your puppy what is an APPROPRIATE place to potty, so that, eventually, he can learn what is "inappropriate". Right now, he's not being hard-headed… he truly has NO idea.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)






krandall is offline  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 10:18 AM
Senior Member
 
misstray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Fort St. John, BC
Posts: 2,113
Submit Photo: 2
Photo Submissions 10 Times in 10 Posts
Here are some of my suggestions.

I wouldn't let him free feed. I'd have set meal times and if he doesn't eat, take it away after 5 minutes. (Water available at all times). I personally, DID take away water a couple of hours before bedtime, but not everyone agrees with this.

Also, I'd think about charting when he goes to try and figure out a pattern.

Make a BIG deal when he gets it right.

With Brody, potty training didn't really take off until I found a treat he really liked. Once I started treating him for it (with something he loved) things got much easier.

Tracy and Brody


A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than you love yourself.
- Josh Billings
misstray is offline  
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 6
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karen, Thanks for the response. I am not sure if Max came from a reputable breeder? I puchased max from "just pets." Lots of good reviews and very reputable around my area. Max is a registered Hav, but I am uncertian about his upbringing. My Vet said said he is a very healthy pup. When I purchased him, I am almost certain that he was not potty trained.

As for your advice, I really like the idea of keeping him crated and using an ex pen. When you say keep him crated; do I keep him crated at all times only to take him potty? Just am a little confused. Other than that, I am open to any and all ideas.

Misstray,
Thanks for you input. Max does love his small cookies. Now we are talking in my realm, "classical conditioning." Do you use this for any and all associated items related to Brody?

Thanks again for the advice and information. It's nice to know that there is help out there.
CrazyMax is offline  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 11:19 AM
Senior Member
 
Pucks104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,362
Submit Photo: 36
Photo Submissions 60 Times in 60 Posts
In addition to what Krandall shared, you need to use an enzymatic cleaner (Anti-Icky Poo, Nature's Miracle, etc.) and clean ALL places where Max has had accidents. Our setup with Leo (8.5 months) is an expen in the den where we spend most of our time and until recently a crate by my bed for sleeping in. When we took him outside, which was very frequently when younger, if he completely emptied, he was permitted a few minutes of closely supervised freedom; if he didn't, he went right back in the expen. At 8.5 months, we still take him out rather than rely on him to tell us when he needs to go. He has always "told" us of his need to go when in the expen but I still wouldn't have that expectation of him if he is out running around the house. His time out of the expen is longer now but still closely monitored. 4.5 months is too soon to have this expectation and every accident that happens is an ok to go in house. He will need to create a new habit of going only where you want him to but you must invest the time and effort to help him establish the kind of habit you want to see.


Pucks104 is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 12:38 PM
Senior Member
 
kicker0927's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 194
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 3 Times in 3 Posts
Check out my thread about the expen I built. It might help or give you some ideas of creating one and, as always, there are some good comments from people on there too. Here's the link:
http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=36338
kicker0927 is offline  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 12:51 PM
Metrowest, MA
 
krandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 23,470
Submit Photo: 6
Photo Submissions 296 Times in 294 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyMax View Post
Karen, Thanks for the response. I am not sure if Max came from a reputable breeder? I puchased max from "just pets." Lots of good reviews and very reputable around my area. Max is a registered Hav, but I am uncertian about his upbringing. My Vet said said he is a very healthy pup. When I purchased him, I am almost certain that he was not potty trained.
There's the problem right there. Pet store puppies are puppy mill puppies, regardless of the stories they tell of their puppies coming from a "farm" in the "mid-west". Reputable breeders NEVER, I repeat NEVER sell their puppies to or through pet stores. So, he was raised in a cage or concrete run with his mother and litter mates. If they were lucky, they had some bedding in one end. They learned that they could let fly anywhere that they wanted. When he was cleaned up, dewormed, treated for any incipient health problems, and passed on to the pet store, he was, most likely, housed in a run with several other puppies in a lot of nice, fluffy shavings where, again, he could (and did) go where ever he wanted. If it was a "good" pet store, they probably kept this run quite clean by picking up after the puppies pretty regularly.

So Max is doing EXACTLY what he has learned to do. It isn't impossible to train a puppy mill puppy (and you seem to have been lucky, and gotten a healthy, good-natured one!) but it DOES take CONSIDERABLY longer than it does with a puppy who has been raised right. You need to undo all the bad habits he has learned (from his perspective, it has been "all his life!") and then re-establish good habits. Be patient with him and with yourself. Think management first. the training will come with time and consistency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyMax View Post
As for your advice, I really like the idea of keeping him crated and using an ex pen. When you say keep him crated; do I keep him crated at all times only to take him potty? Just am a little confused. Other than that, I am open to any and all ideas.
You keep him crated except for right after you KNOW that he has "emptied himself. Since the bigger problem seems to be poop right now, it will take more crating initially. I know it seems mean, but it's not for that long. It's only until you can "catch him being good" enough times that he starts to get the idea. When you KNOW he has gone pee and poop, you can reward him with carefully supervised (eyes ON the puppy at all times!!!) "free play" on an easily cleanable surface, like the kitchen floor. Even then, keep it to 20-30 minutes or so to start with.

Tracy's suggestion about keeping a log is a good one. That way, once he starts pooping at fairly reliable times, you have a little more leeway for allowing more/slightly longer free play when he starts to show that he can reliably hold his pee a bit longer.


Karen, Kodi, Pixel and Panda
(ARCHMX Starborn Kodak Moment CGC, NTD, BN, PCD, NA, NAJ, CDX-CCH, RE, RLV, RL1X3, RL2X4, RL3X3...
plus Starborn's Picture Perfect & Nauti Herd Compact Flash RN, CGC, NTD, SN-C, RL1)






krandall is offline  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 6
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks everyone for the input. I will remain patient. It's comforting knowing that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
CrazyMax is offline  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 07:18 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 354
Submit Photo: 0
Photo Submissions 2 Times in 2 Posts
I would like to echo the importance of positive reinforcement when Max potties outside. For me, when I was training Dionna (on potty pads) when she would potty on the pad, I would really praise her and almost celebrate each success--both with words and a small treat. I mean almost an exaggerated 'whooping it up' so to speak to really send the message home that this is what I was wanting. IMHO, that really helped the process. We also went through a phase during this whole process where she was pottying off the paper right in front of the fridge in addition to on her potty pad and I began to amp up my praise for accurate pottying and also I would check the spot where she was having accidents and when there was none, I would say something like "good girl, no pp off the paper". As crazy as this sounds, she understood what I meant and fairly quickly she stopped having accidents in that spot. Another thing that happened during her training is that she was pottying inside on the pad very accurately and would go pp outside but for awhile did not seem to understand that it was ok to go poop outside. And I was not sure how to handle this because I would verbally say 'go poopie" while we were walking and she just did not get it. And then one day we went to the groomer and when we came home, I just began to walk her and I could tell that she needed to go poop but was even holding it in! I kept saying "good girl, go poopie" and she finally did and looked up at me and I just praised her to the moon. Now she will only go poop outside (from then on she understood this as her preferred place). She is now completely potty trained. And, I need to also state that she is my first dog (I did use an in home trainer who helped me a lot on overall training) so I am thrilled that she is so successfully potty trained.

Dont give up!

Last edited by andra; 11-07-2013 at 07:22 PM. Reason: spelling error
andra is offline  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-08-2013, 07:18 AM
Senior Member
 
kicker0927's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 194
Submit Photo: 1
Photo Submissions 3 Times in 3 Posts
All these potty-training posts are really making nervous about bringing my pup home in Dec!!! One of the reasons I decided on a Hav was due to their intelligence and trainability due to working and living alone.
kicker0927 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome