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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Christmas special , Two for the price of one. lol

There are no truly "submissive" or "dominant/alpha" dogs and by putting these labels on dogs we blind ourselves to all of the

interesting information that the dogs are communicating with its species-typical postures.

Dogs that roll on their back are signaling that they are withdrawing from active, solicitous interaction.

If their limbs and tail are flaccid and their neck is fully exposed, they may invite/tolerate more passive interaction (e.g.

sniffing, petting) from others.

If they tuck their tail and put their paws over their chest and groin, they do not wish to interact, period.

A normal dog recognizes this and withdraws, not because the first dog "submits" to them, but because they are capable of

responding appropriately to the signals " Karen L. Overall, MA, VMD, PhD, DACVB, CAAB

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 07:07 AM
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Really interesting, Dave. SO right that labels simply add to misunderstanding and lack of sensible analysis. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading a book called "The Truth about Wolves and Dogs" by Toni Shelbourne. Puts paid to SO many myths. There is no such thing as an alpha wolf, for example - just a breeding pair who are senior in the group. The breeding pair do NOT lead in any sortie - they allow subordinate animals to go first in case there is danger. The leading pair do NOT eat first, again they allow subordinate wolves to check out any food before eating it themselves....etc. Fascinating stuff.
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 09:33 AM
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This is interesting information Dave and I hesitate to argue with someone who has beau coups of letters after their name, but whether you want to label a dog or not, in my 30+ yrs of owning multiple dogs, there is ALWAYS a clearly defined, well-established, non-negotiable "pecking order" among the dogs. And it shows up very early. Even blind, deaf newborns will display a temperament that doesn't change throughout their entire life. I wonder what the experts say about that?


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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Collins View Post
This is interesting information Dave and I hesitate to argue with someone who has beau coups of letters after their name, but whether you want to label a dog or not, in my 30+ yrs of owning multiple dogs, there is ALWAYS a clearly defined, well-established, non-negotiable "pecking order" among the dogs. And it shows up very early. Even blind, deaf newborns will display a temperament that doesn't change throughout their entire life. I wonder what the experts say about that?
I've never bred dogs, however, have always had a multi-dog household (3-5 at a time). As Karen Collins stated there is ALWAYS a clearly defined pecking order. Anytime this pecking order gets disrupted as has happened in our home this year (we lost our 15 year old corgi, the indisputable head of doggy household in March, and his second in command, our 15 year old JR mix about 2.5 weeks ago, and added Leo in April) things get a bit unsettled with more growliness and jostling for awhile until a new pecking order is established. Not sure whether our Porter or Becca will settle in as head honcho this time but I know it won't be Leo, he just doesn't have the temperament for leadership - too much work! Would be interesting to hear the experts explanation.


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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 11:58 AM
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Very interesting. I would love to read the research that support Dr. Overall's hypothesis.

Ron (and Colbie and Scarlett)
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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what you're describing is not an example of dominance. Dominance is not a personality trait. Here are 3 articles , I have scores more. http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html



http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/posit..._statement.pdf

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Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lalla View Post
Really interesting, Dave. SO right that labels simply add to misunderstanding and lack of sensible analysis. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading a book called "The Truth about Wolves and Dogs" by Toni Shelbourne. Puts paid to SO many myths. There is no such thing as an alpha wolf, for example - just a breeding pair who are senior in the group. The breeding pair do NOT lead in any sortie - they allow subordinate animals to go first in case there is danger. The leading pair do NOT eat first, again they allow subordinate wolves to check out any food before eating it themselves....etc. Fascinating stuff.
Exactly.

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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Dominance(Social Dominance). An ethological construct describing features of a social relationship, which addresses the management of social conflict, including (but not limited to) the allocation of limited resources, through the exertion of control and influence. This takes place in a way that minimizes the risk of overt aggression by way of the use of conventionalized ritual display behaviors. This minimization of risk involves a cost–benefit evaluation of the benefits of seeking to win a particular social conflict versus the likely associated cost (O’Heare, 2004). The term “dominance” is misused and abused to the point that it is often harmful to invoke it because it promotes adversarial relationships between dog and owner. Also often used as a label for a dog using countercontrol behaviors as a result of aversive stimulation and coercion. A counterproductive construct that distracts from the functional relationship between behavior and the environment, which actually causes and explains behaviors.

O'Heare, J. (2011). Encyclopedic glossary of terms and abbreviations in the technology and principles of behavior. Retrieved Month, day, year from http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/glossary.html"

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 12:34 PM
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[QUOTE=davetgabby;732562]Dominance(Social Dominance). An ethological construct describing features of a social relationship, which addresses the management of social conflict, including (but not limited to) the allocation of limited resources, through the exertion of control and influence. This takes place in a way that minimizes the risk of overt aggression by way of the use of conventionalized ritual display behaviors. This minimization of risk involves a cost–benefit evaluation of the benefits of seeking to win a particular social conflict versus the likely associated cost (O’Heare, 2004).

This definition of dominance would seem to describe the "pecking order" behavior I have witnessed through the years within my multi-dog household. We have very rarely had a dog fight, maybe a couple times in my many decades of dog parenting. However, the dog at the top of the pecking order gets the bone he/she wants even if someone else is actively chewing it, the sleeping spot He/she desires even if someone else was there first, control over movement in and out of rooms with a glance or "vibe", and will ensure any new dog entering the group respects the pecking order sometimes by dishing out a bit of noisy emphasis. At times like now when those at the top of the pecking order have died as has happened this year in our home, the others seem a bit lost for awhile. They struggle a bit with who should get the choice bone, sleeping place, who goes through a door first or enters a room. It has always sorted itself out, sometimes with a few scuffles and some growling. I don't doubt that Porter and Becca will come to terms soon and then all will settle down again for the next many years of their lives.


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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-2013, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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[quote=Pucks104;732634]
Quote:
Originally Posted by davetgabby View Post
Dominance(Social Dominance). An ethological construct describing features of a social relationship, which addresses the management of social conflict, including (but not limited to) the allocation of limited resources, through the exertion of control and influence. This takes place in a way that minimizes the risk of overt aggression by way of the use of conventionalized ritual display behaviors. This minimization of risk involves a cost–benefit evaluation of the benefits of seeking to win a particular social conflict versus the likely associated cost (O’Heare, 2004).

This definition of dominance would seem to describe the "pecking order" behavior I have witnessed through the years within my multi-dog household. We have very rarely had a dog fight, maybe a couple times in my many decades of dog parenting. However, the dog at the top of the pecking order gets the bone he/she wants even if someone else is actively chewing it, the sleeping spot He/she desires even if someone else was there first, control over movement in and out of rooms with a glance or "vibe", and will ensure any new dog entering the group respects the pecking order sometimes by dishing out a bit of noisy emphasis. At times like now when those at the top of the pecking order have died as has happened this year in our home, the others seem a bit lost for awhile. They struggle a bit with who should get the choice bone, sleeping place, who goes through a door first or enters a room. It has osorted itself out, sometimes with a few scuffles and some growling. I don't doubt that Porter and Becca will come to terms soon and then all will settle down again for the next many years of their lives.
dogs do not exhibit a pecking order such as certain breeds of chickens. Keep reading . This is something you can't understand over night.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
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