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post #1 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
Dave T
 
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Respect

here is a super article on "respect" as it relates to dog training. No wonder it also was enjoyed by Jean Donaldson. She has been telling us for years that terms like respect and guilt are not qualities that dogs are capable of., and that they are anthropomorphic in nature. For those of you not familiar with the acronym +P trainer, it is simply referring to positive punishment type trainer (the "bad" type of punishment. ) eg. shock collar . http://dogsandethics.blogspot.ca/201...-training.html

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post #2 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 03:12 PM
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I see her talking about "respect",and can certainly see (and agree) with her point of view.

She says, "They’re not capable of processing abstract concepts like respect, guilt, shame or responsibility. " I think that's different than trust, however. I think dogs (and other animals) can and do learn to trust their handler, if handled kindly and predictably. (I think animals care a LOT about predictability in their handlers)

I think where a lot of +R trainers get stuck is not going BEYOND the "cookie as reward" mentality, and don't work hard enough to develop the dog's perceived value in the RELATIONSHIP between the dog and handler. I know that the more I develop "personal play" with Kodi (this is relational, between just him and me, no toy or food in the picture) the more reliable he is in a competition setting, where there IS no possibility of food as a reward. (or, if I were so inclined, of punishment, either! )

I want Kodi's whole outlook to be that THE most rewarding thing he can do is to "play" with this fun, exciting partner. (hopefully, ME! ) Since I WON'T use +P, even in training, that's the ONLY way I can keep him paying attention to me and heel around 4 dog bowls full of food, the way I must in an offset figure 8. It's also the only reason he could possibly have to leave off chasing that chipmunk in the woods and return to me when I call, tail wagging.


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post #3 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davetgabby View Post
here is a super article on "respect" as it relates to dog training. No wonder it also was enjoyed by Jean Donaldson. She has been telling us for years that terms like respect and guilt are not qualities that dogs are capable of., and that they are anthropomorphic in nature. For those of you not familiar with the acronym +P trainer, it is simply referring to positive punishment type trainer (the "bad" type of punishment. ) eg. shock collar . http://dogsandethics.blogspot.ca/201...-training.html
So if dogs are not capable of respect and guilt, which of the following if any, are they capable of and what's the distinguishing factor:

1. Pride
2. Jealousy/Envy
3. Depression
4. Frustration
5. Appreciation
6. Trust
7. Happy/Joyful
8. Fearful
9. Angry/Mad
10. Sad

John




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post #4 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by krandall View Post
I see her talking about "respect",and can certainly see (and agree) with her point of view.

She says, "They’re not capable of processing abstract concepts like respect, guilt, shame or responsibility. " I think that's different than trust, however. I think dogs (and other animals) can and do learn to trust their handler, if handled kindly and predictably. (I think animals care a LOT about predictability in their handlers)

I think where a lot of +R trainers get stuck is not going BEYOND the "cookie as reward" mentality, and don't work hard enough to develop the dog's perceived value in the RELATIONSHIP between the dog and handler. I know that the more I develop "personal play" with Kodi (this is relational, between just him and me, no toy or food in the picture) the more reliable he is in a competition setting, where there IS no possibility of food as a reward. (or, if I were so inclined, of punishment, either! )

I want Kodi's whole outlook to be that THE most rewarding thing he can do is to "play" with this fun, exciting partner. (hopefully, ME! ) Since I WON'T use +P, even in training, that's the ONLY way I can keep him paying attention to me and heel around 4 dog bowls full of food, the way I must in an offset figure 8. It's also the only reason he could possibly have to leave off chasing that chipmunk in the woods and return to me when I call, tail wagging.
yeah Karen, I mistakenly used trust originally , I meant respect. yeah I believe in using trust , as a matter of fact , I wrote an article on Trust in Havanese Breed Magazine lately and it will be in the next issue.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
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post #5 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 03:34 PM
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Excellent article, Dave, and points made, Karen. I've been reading a book I thoroughly recommend called "The Truth about Wolves and Dogs" by Toni Shelbourne (i've mentioned it before on this forum somewhere, I think); it's fascinating about wolf hierarchy and the whole 'pack' misconception re wolves; there is no such thing as an 'alpha' wolf. There IS what is known as an 'omega' wolf, one designated by the pack as the scapegoat and appeaser. But to use a word like 'scapegoat' imbues the role with all sorts of human values. The omega wolf is not unhappy in its role, rather it works hard at it and does it to the best of its ability. There is a breeding pair, rather than any 'alpha' dominant. The omega will work to keep harmony in the pack. The breeding pair are the leaders, but do NOT go first in any order when moving from a to b; they do NOT eat first. They do not elicit any equivalent of 'respect', they make sure the pack does well, hunts cleverly and is well led, and thereby gain their status. The omega wolf will break up fights, appease, initiate play as an appeaser, and generally diffuse any potentially damaging situation. It may have once been part of a breeding pair, or may become part of a breeding pair in time. The whole idea of pack dominance, based upon a vague and unscientific notion of how wolves interact, is misplaced. The author is SO good, too, on the relationship between humans and both dogs and wolves - she herself has worked extensively with wolves. And dogs.
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post #6 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gibbs Mom and Dad View Post
So if dogs are not capable of respect and guilt, which of the following if any, are they capable of and what's the distinguishing factor:

1. Pride
2. Jealousy/Envy
3. Depression
4. Frustration
5. Appreciation
6. Trust
7. Happy/Joyful
8. Fearful
9. Angry/Mad
10. Sad
2 3 4 6 7 89 10 complex topic

Dave and Molly
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post #7 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by davetgabby View Post
2 3 4 6 7 89 10 complex topic
I'm going to ask you to do better than "complex topic" as it relates to the following comparisons:

Pride/Guilt/Respect - Can't Feel

vs.

Trust/Jealousy/Envy - Can Feel


Most specifically, I'm interested in the distinctions between:

1. Trust & Respect
2. Pride & Jealousy


Those emotions are correlative in nature.

John




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post #8 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gibbs Mom and Dad View Post
I'm going to ask you to do better than "complex topic" as it relates to the following comparisons:

Pride/Guilt/Respect - Can't Feel

vs.

Trust/Jealousy/Envy - Can Feel


Most specifically, I'm interested in the distinctions between:

1. Trust & Respect
2. Pride & Jealousy


Those emotions are correlative in nature.
hey John you can subscribe to Havanese Breed Magazine and read my ariticle on Trust lol. No seriously, it comes down to reading about dogs and their ability or lack of , to reason. Spend some time thinking about these things and then ask your self if it's a leap. I"ll try to come back with some good articles.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
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post #9 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
Dave T
 
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here's a good book.



Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
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post #10 of 56 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalla View Post
Excellent article, Dave, and points made, Karen. I've been reading a book I thoroughly recommend called "The Truth about Wolves and Dogs" by Toni Shelbourne (i've mentioned it before on this forum somewhere, I think); it's fascinating about wolf hierarchy and the whole 'pack' misconception re wolves; there is no such thing as an 'alpha' wolf. There IS what is known as an 'omega' wolf, one designated by the pack as the scapegoat and appeaser. But to use a word like 'scapegoat' imbues the role with all sorts of human values. The omega wolf is not unhappy in its role, rather it works hard at it and does it to the best of its ability. There is a breeding pair, rather than any 'alpha' dominant. The omega will work to keep harmony in the pack. The breeding pair are the leaders, but do NOT go first in any order when moving from a to b; they do NOT eat first. They do not elicit any equivalent of 'respect', they make sure the pack does well, hunts cleverly and is well led, and thereby gain their status. The omega wolf will break up fights, appease, initiate play as an appeaser, and generally diffuse any potentially damaging situation. It may have once been part of a breeding pair, or may become part of a breeding pair in time. The whole idea of pack dominance, based upon a vague and unscientific notion of how wolves interact, is misplaced. The author is SO good, too, on the relationship between humans and both dogs and wolves - she herself has worked extensively with wolves. And dogs.
yep even David Mech apologized for being misleading.

Dave and Molly
Ian Dunbar was awarded the Outstanding Achievement Award from I.P.D.T.A. Here's a picture of me accepting the award on his behalf.
Member of IAABC ,International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants , Member of Pet Professional Guild
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