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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-01-2014, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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Pit Bulls


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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-01-2014, 03:45 PM
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First off, I am totally against breed specific legislation. However, as the owner of smaller dogs, I have to admit that when I see a pitbull type breed approaching me when walking, I will turn and walk the other way unless I know that specific dog. I do know a couple of people who own pitbulls and they spend alot of time with them and they are very calm, well behaved dogs. The problem is that this breed is desired by people who should not own a dog period, let alone one that is capable of great damage. I think these bully breeds can be great dogs, but I do believe that they need especially dog-savvy owners who take the time to train and socialize their dogs, more so than say, a pomeranian, who would be obnoxious if not trained or socialized, but couldn't kill another dog or person. There are also the people that breed these dogs indiscriminately and fill the pounds and shelters with dogs that will never find a good home. I don't think that BSL is the answer, I believe that anyone who wants to own a dog should have to pass a test and receive a license. If you violate any conditions of the license, then you are not allowed to ever own a dog again. Just my thoughts...
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-01-2014, 03:48 PM
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I watched the entire video. I agree with most of what was said. Some of my favorite quotes, and I completely agree with all of them:

“It is humans that are responsible for dog behavior.

“All dog incidents that result in severe injury or death to humans have some level of human negligence in the equation”

“Breed band legislation is unenforceable”

“A dog’s dangerousness is directly related to its owner’s practices”

“It’s a people problem. It’s not a “pit bull problem”

“Millions of tax dollars have been spent”


Ironically, if you substitute the word "Gun" for the words, "Dog", "Pit Bull" & "Breed band", these are many of the same arguments put forth by the NRA about gun control legislation.

I need to think about that.

John





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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-01-2014, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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great analogies from the Pittsburgh people.

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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-01-2014, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gibbs Mom and Dad View Post
Ironically, if you substitute the word "Gun" for the words, "Dog", "Pit Bull" & "Breed band", these are many of the same arguments put forth by the NRA about gun control legislation.
I don't think it's QUITE the same, because with few exceptions, almost ALL guns are lethal weapons. They are all produced to kill something, even if the original intent was not to kill humans.

There are MANY pit bulls that couldn't be MADE to harm, let along kill, a human. You can leave them lying around the house and not worry about your kids finding them and shooting themselves by mistake. So there are some big difference.

I guess, because I am involved with a "world" where there are many extremely well trained dogs of MANY breeds, and mostly knowledgeable, conscientious owners, I have met an awful lot of Pits (and Rotties) that are very trustworthy. The funny thing is that I can't think of a Pit among the "reactive" dogs that people need to "manage" to keep them from getting in trouble at trials. The reactive dogs I know of who trial with us are an Aussie, a Golden Retriever, two Labs, a Malamute and every Cattle Dog and Min Pin I know. (and all of those are fine with people, it's just that they have to be VERY carefully managed around other dogs)

I don't usually worry about even these reactive dogs when we are with them though, in fairness to them and their owners, (and for the safety of my one small dog!!!) I do try to give them the space they need. Conversely, I approach EVERY dog out in the general public, no matter WHAT breed (or size, for that matter), as a possible danger because of the number of idiot owners attached to them. I assume they are all reactive and will not be appropriately managed until proven otherwise. It's the only way I know to keep my dog safe.

There are no easy answers. It's true that Pits attract owners who DEFINITELY shouldn't have ANY dog, let alone a "bully" breed. But if it weren't Pits, it would be a different breed. The other problem is that there are SO many Pits in shelters, where the past history of the dog is NOT known, and who may or may not have received the socialization (especially dog-on-dog!) that they should have when they were young. THESE dogs, I do kind of worry about in terms of the "loaded gun" lying around the house… especially in the hands of people who are NOT experienced dog people and who have young children in the house.


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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-01-2014, 07:15 PM
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great analogies from the Pittsburgh people.
Not to be political, but I can't stand the NRA. The constitution says what it says and the Supreme Court interpreted it as they did, but those sound bites are meaningless.

I agree 100% with the video you posted. I love the Pit Bull as a breed, it's an awesome dog and doesn't deserve its reputation. Humans are capable of perverting or corrupting most anything, unfortunately Pit Bulls have been used by such people.

John




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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 02:35 PM
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If you have ever been viciously attacked, and your pets killed by them you may feel differently. Yes it is the people who are the problem. But when they run wild, pit bulls are extremely powerful and much more difficult to overpower. Make no mistake, the only way to stop them is with a gun. I had the misfortune of having to deal with 2 pit bulls.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 04:27 PM
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Like I said before, I am against breed specific legislation, but I also believe that certain breeds should only be owned by people who are "dog savvy" and know what they are getting into and are actually physically able to control their dog if it does get out of control. One time I was walking Lilly and Trixi at a local park and a young woman had a large pitbull who started going nuts trying to get at my dogs. The woman had to crouch down and put her arms around the dog and hold him back. It was very scary for me and both my dogs. The woman kept saying to the dog: "Oh stop, you are scaring the little dogs" like it was not a big deal. I am not saying that it was because it was a pitbull, but more because the owner should not have owned a dog she could not handle and was not trained to be around other dogs. It is not just pitbulls. A lot of larger dogs do seem to look at smaller dogs as prey and need a lot more socializing around them.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-03-2014, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by cruzr View Post
If you have ever been viciously attacked, and your pets killed by them you may feel differently. Yes it is the people who are the problem. But when they run wild, pit bulls are extremely powerful and much more difficult to overpower. Make no mistake, the only way to stop them is with a gun. I had the misfortune of having to deal with 2 pit bulls.
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Originally Posted by Lillysmom View Post
Like I said before, I am against breed specific legislation, but I also believe that certain breeds should only be owned by people who are "dog savvy" and know what they are getting into ...

... I am not saying that it was because it was a pitbull, but more because the owner should not have owned a dog she could not handle and was not trained to be around other dogs. It is not just pitbulls. A lot of larger dogs do seem to look at smaller dogs as prey and need a lot more socializing around them.
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Originally Posted by Lillysmom View Post
First off, I am totally against breed specific legislation. ...

... I think these bully breeds can be great dogs, but I do believe that they need especially dog-savvy owners who take the time to train and socialize their dogs, more so than say, a pomeranian, who would be obnoxious if not trained or socialized, but couldn't kill another dog or person ...
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Originally Posted by krandall View Post
...There are no easy answers. It's true that Pits attract owners who DEFINITELY shouldn't have ANY dog, let alone a "bully" breed. But if it weren't Pits, it would be a different breed ...

... The other problem is that there are SO many Pits in shelters, where the past history of the dog is NOT known, and who may or may not have received the socialization (especially dog-on-dog!) that they should have when they were young. THESE dogs, I do kind of worry about in terms of the "loaded gun" lying around the house… especially in the hands of people who are NOT experienced dog people and who have young children in the house.
These are all fair comments. Among others, one of the problems with any legislation is whether or not owning a dog is a "right" or a "privilege". Driving a car is considered a privilege, which is why states can enact laws that regulate it. They can require minimum ages and a driving tests. Owning fire arms is considered a right (in the U.S.) and passing laws regulating gun ownership is difficult.


Lilly makes a valid point when she states an ill socialized Pomeranian isn't likely to kill or significantly injure anyone, where as a Pit Bull might.

Cruzr's post makes a similar point.


One might suggest that in lieu of BSL, that maybe legislation requiring certain training and socialization would be appropriate. Maybe in order to get a dog license, one must complete puppy classes up to certain level. There are several issues with such a requirement, amongst them is reflected in Krandall's post where she states, that if it wasn't Pit Bulls, it would be a different breed.

There are many breeds capable of aggressive or violent behavior if poorly socialized, or worse, trained to be aggressive or violent. Some with more ease than Pit Bulls.

Does such legislation rank dogs within a heirarchy?:

1. Pitt Bulls, Rotweillers, Dobermans, Shepards etc.

2. Toy Breeds


Is that fair?


It's an interesting topic.

There probably is a reasonable approach somewhere in the middle that wouldn't make those with vested interests happy.

John




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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-03-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Gibbs Mom and Dad View Post
These are all fair comments. Among others, one of the problems with any legislation is whether or not owning a dog is a "right" or a "privilege". Driving a car is considered a privilege, which is why states can enact laws that regulate it. They can require minimum ages and a driving tests. Owning fire arms is considered a right (in the U.S.) and passing laws regulating gun ownership is difficult.


Lilly makes a valid point when she states an ill socialized Pomeranian isn't likely to kill or significantly injure anyone, where as a Pit Bull might.

Cruzr's post makes a similar point.


One might suggest that in lieu of BSL, that maybe legislation requiring certain training and socialization would be appropriate. Maybe in order to get a dog license, one must complete puppy classes up to certain level. There are several issues with such a requirement, amongst them is reflected in Krandall's post where she states, that if it wasn't Pit Bulls, it would be a different breed.

There are many breeds capable of aggressive or violent behavior if poorly socialized, or worse, trained to be aggressive or violent. Some with more ease than Pit Bulls.

Does such legislation rank dogs within a heirarchy?:

1. Pitt Bulls, Rotweillers, Dobermans, Shepards etc.

2. Toy Breeds


Is that fair?


It's an interesting topic.

There probably is a reasonable approach somewhere in the middle that wouldn't make those with vested interests happy.
If I had my druthers, just as in most communities, you need to show proof of Rabies vaccination in order to license your dog, you would also have to show that you had taken your dog to enough classes for him or her to attain a CGC by a certain age. (or something similar) This would not be hard to implement, and no more difficult to enforce than current licensing requirements.

I do NOT think it should be breed specific… It should be across the board. While a Pomeranian might have a harder time killing someone, I still don't want to get bitten by one, nor do I want to worry about it attacking my dog. Those with biddable breeds will get their CGC more quickly and more easily than those with tougher breeds, meaning those with tougher breeds would be "in school" longer. People who have the skills to train the dog by themselves could just show up and have their dog tested.

Trouble is, you'd probably have to phase it in over a period of time… It would be hard to insist that owners of a 13 year old, deaf, blind Labrador comply. But if you started with the requirement for newly acquired dogs, over a period of 10-15 years, you'd end up with a pretty civilized population of pet dogs and a lot of MUCH better educated owners! It would also have the benefit of really forcing breeders to prioritize temperament. If people had trouble getting their dog socialized to the point that they could pass the CGC, (whether the problem was lack of biddability, aggressiveness or even shyness or anxiety) they would think twice before buying another puppy from that breeder.


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