Four-month Vet check - Havanese Forum : Havanese Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Four-month Vet check

Kojo weighs 7 lbs now. Has already lost a couple baby teeth, Got his last triple vaccine shot and got 6-month heart worm prevention shot. And last, his rabies vaccine. Booster on bordetella. So lots of ouch this AM.

I gave him Cerenia and he didn't get carsick. Vet said to switch him to kibble for better oral hygiene. So picked up bag of MERRICK Lil' Plates Grain free Puppy food (chicken with sweet potato). Mixing with Blue Buffalo canned puppy for now.

He is a little monster biting everything (my pant legs, hands. even mouths his steel ex-pen. Picked up some more teething stuff (nylabone edibles).

Still hates leash but now that all shots done he can go out more. So will be working on training more.

Vet says will pull any remaining baby teeth when he gets neutered in a few months.

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 03:31 PM
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Catherine Lane Possible Canine " I want to feed a home made,cooked diet Ė but donít we need kibble to clean teeth?

In a word, no. You need raw bones and/or a good toothbrush and a bit of discipline to brush regularly. Some dogs will tend to get plaque more readily than others; some canít tolerate raw bones, some will maintain a clean healthy mouth on a raw diet with little effort from their guardians. And no question, maintaining good oral hygiene is critically important for systemic, longterm health. but kibble wonít do it Ė in fact, itís the worst thing you can feed for healthy teeth and gums. This is a huge myth. Feed raw, safe bones, brush, use a balanced raw diet where appropriate. Kibble fed dogs have the worst oral hygiene Iíve seen."
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 03:39 PM
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although I'm not a fan of Dog Food Adviser , he is a dentist Dry Dog Food and the Myth of Cleaner Teeth
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Then why did vet say to switch to kibble? Do they not know better? Very hard to teach toothbrushing when teething and biting everything. Even bites comb and brush when I try to groom him.

I am not in to raw bones. Too hard to find. Everything available here are huge broth bones with no meat on them.

Last edited by LUVmyHava; 06-03-2019 at 05:32 PM.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 07:02 PM
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vets ...some do some don't .
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Don't want to be cynical but maybe vet just want to do annual cleanings under anesthesia. $$$

I understand small dogs have bigger issues with periodontal disease. My cavalier had 3 teeth pulled because abscessed and needed 3 more pulled before he suddenly died of ruptured spleen from undiagnosed cancer.

Doesn't chewing rope toys sort of floss their teeth?

All vets I talk to warn strongly against raw diet.

Last edited by LUVmyHava; 06-03-2019 at 07:17 PM.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 01:55 AM
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Vets discourage against raw diet because balancing a raw diet without a lot of planning and oversight can be really unhealthy. However, properly balanced diets are completely different. Personally I donít really have time for a home cooked or carefully planned raw diet, but I also think that some vets are biased against it because they see the consequences when it goes wrong. I do a mix of kibble, freeze dried, and table food, itís what fits with my budget and family. Everyone works out a different diet for different reasons, but I have to admit Iím skeptical of the vet telling you to change diets based on oral hygiene unless thereís something really out of the ordinary. My experience is limited but has been that even my own vet, who I really respect and believe is better than most, really isnít especially invested in quality dog food and research related to it. We discussed diet several times trying to sort out my puppyís recurrent diarrhea and I never really felt confident in the advice. At first it kind of bothered me, but in reading I have learned that it is really common, partly because the dietary needs of a wide variety of animals and breeds and the lifestyles of their families are so vastly different, and because there really isnít a ton of reliable research. The whole grain free debacle over the last year is a great example. Iím not saying to completely ignore your vet, but I think also do your own research before you make a major change. That being said, we had our puppy on the Merrick lil plates because it was the closest match I could find locally to the breederís food and our puppy loved it and did well on it. I mixed kibble with canned for a few months, too, the same brand. Itís easier to find at chain stores and is still pretty good quality. When he went off of canned food I slowly switched him to something else.

My impression is harder bones are what most people use for oral hygiene, or things like antlers, but Iíve never given anything like that because Iíve always been confused about what is safe and what isnít. Mine got bully sticks (odor free) all of the time during his chewing stage and when he stopped chewing as much I noticed a difference. Our breeder really emphasized the importance of keeping him chewing and sent us with a bully stick, and Iím so glad. I donít think I would have discovered them on my own and they are one of the cleaner chews. Chewing didnít just help with teething, it actually settled down our puppy, too.

I do brush, but not every day. When he was a puppy I let him chew on the toothbrush a little. Thatís probably bad but I actually chewed on toothbrushes myself when I was a kid. I donít even really remember when I stopped, but I remember a roommate noticing I bought new toothbrushes a lot! I guess in my mind letting him chew on it for 15 seconds let him explore and get comfortable with it. It probably just wore out the toothbrush faster!

Also, after reading here that a bunch of people on the forum use coconut oil to brush teeth, I bought some and our Hav LOVES it!

So glad your puppy is doing well! Mine always gives the best snuggles after shots, itís the less obvious silver lining.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 08:01 AM Thread Starter
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So glad your puppy is doing well! Mine always gives the best snuggles after shots, itís the less obvious silver lining.
Yes. Kojo was very happy sitting on my lap snoozing after shots. I suspect he didn't feel very well after. It was wonderful that he was so snuggly. I really missed that from my Cavalier. He was back to his "monster" mode the next morning. Doesn't want to be held. Into everything. Play biting getting better as mostly nips rather than hard bites now. Still grabs my clothes and especially towels and Swiffer Wetjet pad. I have to put in ex-pen to clean floor.

I gave Bully Sticks to my Cavalier a few times. Always gave him diarrhea. High fat content makes them nutritionally unhealthy. I was always wary of antlers. Afraid might break off teeth.

I don't know about coconut oil as a good plaque remover. My brother-in-law who is a human dentist laughed at the idea that coconut oil could help kill bacteria causing plaque growth.

My vet said Kojo's anal glands were full and expressed them. How could a puppy have anal gland issues already? My Cavalier started getting anal gland issues at age 8 years (not 4 months). I also read that some vets discourage regular anal gland expression as it aggregates rather than helps.

The tech wrote in Kojo's paperwork (they always give me copies), that Kojo had abnormal HAIR GROWTH and needed grooming. HELLO. Havanese are supposed to have long silky hair. The vet the month before said NOT to take to groomers until all shots finished.

Trying to find a groomer willing to take on rambunctious puppy for first grooming. Kojo does need face trim and shave hair away between toes pads. The vet tech did sanitary trim for me and plucked hair out of ears. Plucking hair from ears also seems to be something vets don't agree on either.

You would think that vets would have a good scientific basis for all their recommendations. But research seems lacking. And practices appear to differ regionally as well as where the vet went to school. She did say that SCIENCE DIET had removed all grain from food/treats. But I would never feed Kojo Science Diet. It may not have grain now but only meat byproducts. Vet said misconception about grain being bad. That chicken is the culprit for allergies. I know grain is bad and do not care what vet thinks. Kojo came from breeders on trash Purina Puppy Chow and had loose stools. Two meals on Blue Buffalo grain-free canned food and solid poop.

A vet professor at UV-Davis vet school says no need to give booster shots all their lives. Just like humans, once baby (puppy) vaccinations done, they have lifetime immunity. So really only need Rabies repeated because the law. But cannot find a vet that will agree with that idea. Vaccinations are the primary source of their income. One stupid vet here says he requires vaccination of all animals and gives vaccine when pet seen even if sick. Should never vaccinate a sick animal.

I read Bordetella vaccine a total waste. It is a rhinovirus (like common cold in humans), which mutates rapidly. So the vaccination only protects against the specific strain of the vaccine and can get kennel cough from different strain.

I am not totally pleased with the vet I have for Kojo. Is it normal to give Bordetella vaccine twice, one month apart, for puppy?
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:50 AM
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I don't know about coconut oil as a good plaque remover. My brother-in-law who is a human dentist laughed at the idea that coconut oil could help kill bacteria causing plaque growth.
That is so funny because I asked my dad, who is a dentist and grew up on a farm, and he said, ďreally?Ē Pretty skeptically and then he said, ďask your vet.Ē But I was suggesting it more to help your puppy get used to brushing! I use toothpaste, too, although Iím not sure itís fluoridated or has any special ingredients other than flavor in a tube - I donít even know if dogsí teeth need the same or different things than humans, other than cleaning.

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My vet said Kojo's anal glands were full and expressed them. How could a puppy have anal gland issues already? My Cavalier started getting anal gland issues at age 8 years (not 4 months). I also read that some vets discourage regular anal gland expression as it aggregates rather than helps.
Mine had gland issues as a puppy because he had recurrent bouts of diarrhea. Even if his poop was just a little soft his glands wouldnít empty properly. He hasnít needed his anal glands emptied at all since that was resolved, but it took almost a year to figure out because it came and went. We treated for giardia, switched foods multiple times, and finally took him off of Heartgard (blood tests instead). Our vet also doesnít recommend emptying them regularly but he said there are exceptions, and sometimes puppies need help. We only had them emptied when he was symptomatic or they were full.

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Plucking hair from ears also seems to be something vets don't agree on either.


And groomers!

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Originally Posted by LUVmyHava View Post

You would think that vets would have a good scientific basis for all their recommendations. But research seems lacking. And practices appear to differ regionally as well as where the vet went to school.

Also they seem more influenced by the interest level of the population they serve. If pediatricians only recommended good nutrition to parents they think can afford to shop at organic markets and ask a lot of questions about diet, imagine the backlash! But there are great vets out there, itĎs just sometimes hard to tell who is good and who isnít.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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I donít even know if dogsí teeth need the same or different things than humans, other than cleaning.
I bought Virbac C. E. T. Enzymatic Toothpaste "for companion animals only".

Ingredients are Sorbitol, Dicalcium Phosphate Anhydrous, Purified Water, Hydrated Silica, Glycerin, Dextrose, Xanthan Gum, Vanillan, Titanium Dioxide, Polysorbate 20, Sodium Benzoate, Methyl Salicylate, Potassium Thiocyanate, Glucose Oxidase (aspergillus Niger) and Lactoperioxide.

Sorbitol, Dextrose, Polysorbate 20 are SUGAR.
Sodium Benzoate is a common food preservative.
Methyl Salicylate is an NSAID pain reliever found in ASPERCREME.

"Brushing with a natural toothpaste that has glycerin is completely counterproductive."

"Hydrated Silica Ė Used to remove debris and stains, this common abrasive is a component of sand. Over time, it can scratch and damage your tooth enamel and may prevent tooth remineralization by changing your mouth's acidic balance."

"Dicalcium phosphate is used as a food additive, it is found in some toothpastes as a polishing agent and is a biomaterial."

" Titanium dioxide is often used to impart whiteness to food products, cosmetics and personal care items, like toothpaste."

"The pharmaceutical industry uses potassium thiocyanate as a raw material for chemotherapeutic drugs, antibiotics and thyroid medications."

"When glucose oxidase is in the presence of glucose and oxygen, it becomes antibacterial.The enzymes generate hydrogen peroxide that targets plaque and tartar."

So this dog toothpaste is essentially 3 sugars with enzyme that turns it into hydrogen peroxide, abrasive material and polisher, tooth whitener and pain reliever as base material.

No flavoring except maybe the sweetness from sugar. Are you kidding me? I am not putting this stuff in my puppy's mouth. Be better off using brush alone.
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