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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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A little perplexed with breeder interaction

Hello All - New to the forum. Great information here that I have used in search for a Havanese puppy for my family.

I wanted to describe an interaction with the breeder which left me quite confused and perplexed. Wanted to get your thoughts on this.

So I found a breeder through a local breeder club. The breeder is not on havanese.org but since I found the info on a local breeder club which had other members who were reputable, I felt that I can potentially work with this breeder and possible get a puppy.

Long story short...We had couple of interactions and talked about the puppy, the dam and sire, health testing etc.. Everything felt positive. We did facetime and were happy with what we saw.

The Sire had all the required tests completed and I checked that on OFA.

The Dam of the puppy did not have hips and elbows testing done but had Eyes, BAER, Patella, Cardiac done. Further the Dam's parents also were not tested for hips and elbows. Everything else was okay for both of them though.

When I asked the breeder politely why was this the case, she said that the Dam had preliminary testing (under 2 years) done for hips and elbows. When she sent the preliminary testing papers the top portion was cut off probably by mistake. So I asked her to send me a complete image. She did send me a complete image but in a subsequent communication said she no longer wanted to work with me as I did not trust her as a breeder and that I will not be a good fit for the puppy.

I was perplexed and confused. So I responded that I will be a first time puppy owner and I am requesting the minimum required testing per the Havanese association. I also said that, it shows that I am thorough and care about proper breeding. So my questions should not offend you. Instead this should make you happy that the puppy will go to a home where he will be cared for.

But she was adamant and basically said that breeder appreciates thorough research but the deal is off.

Not sure how I should proceed with future breeder? Did I do anything wrong?

FYI. Our interactions were always polite, respectful and courteous.

Apologies for long post.

Thanks,
LF
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 10:13 PM
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It sure doesnít sound like you did anything wrong, but the thing is, misinterpretation is so easy, and there is so much potential for shadiness, and there are etiquette things i didnít really get - Iím not sure itís worth the strain of repairing the relationship unless you are certain the breeder is really reputable. I really liked our breeder, but I didnít ask all of the questions that I should have because I was a little intimidated and unsure. If I was doing it again, I would use the same breeder but get to know her better so Iíd feel more comfortable asking or find a breeder I connect with better.

I can see potential for miscommunication in your situation, but even if thatís the case, do you really want to work with someone who is difficult for you to read and doesnít provide clear answers? Most of the great breeders I have come across since weíve been dog owners welcome questions!

I have read lately there are some hip things that can be subjective but it sounds like something that would have been discussed and not shut down the process if that was the case.

Iíve only worked with one breeder, this is just my perspective based on my own experience and what Iíd do differently.
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-20-2019, 10:48 AM
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I don't think you did anything wrong (though elbows are not a requirement for our breed... that would be extra) It is not uncommon to breed on prelims if the prelims look good and the girl comes in heat right around her second birthday, precluding her 2-year-old final hip xrays at that time. The final xrays would be done later. Usually, if the prelims are good or better, so are the finals.

breeders are people, and all people are different. No two are alike, and some may be "touchier" than others. The bottom line, though, is that YOU are the buyer, and YOU need to have confidence in the breeder and the transaction or you should move on and find a different breeder. The same is actually true for the breeder. Not all breeder/buyer personality pairings are going to work. There is a breeder and a puppy out there waiting for you. You have every right to ask questions about the health testing, and to feel comfortable about why things were done the way they were. I will assume that you were polite and respectful in your requests for information, and as long as you were, you have nothing to feel bad about. As long as that is the case, just move on and find a breeder who is a better fit for you!


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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 12:09 AM
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I'm more suspicious

Quote:
Originally Posted by learnfpga View Post
...The Dam of the puppy did not have hips and elbows testing done but had Eyes, BAER, Patella, Cardiac done. Further the Dam's parents also were not tested for hips and elbows. Everything else was okay for both of them though.

When I asked the breeder politely why was this the case, she said that the Dam had preliminary testing (under 2 years) done for hips and elbows. When she sent the preliminary testing papers the top portion was cut off probably by mistake. So I asked her to send me a complete image. She did send me a complete image but in a subsequent communication said she no longer wanted to work with me as I did not trust her as a breeder and that I will not be a good fit for the puppy....
How old is the Dam now? If she very close to 2, then maybe Karen's ideas on why they don't have final scans for her would make sense. But I guess I'm the more suspicious person here because I read 'they tested everyone else, but don't post the results for the Dam... I asked for them and they sent me an incomplete scan... I asked again and I got the whole scan but immediately got kicked out because I didn't "trust" the breeder'

In my suspicious brain that set off bells. We don't share the info, when pushed we share a bad copy of it, when pushed again we bring out the "you don't trust me". Well, why should you trust her? You're a potential customer - after you agree to work with someone then maybe trust comes in, but in my experience someone who throws around the "you don't trust me so we can't work together" when you've just asked for information usually does that because they're hiding something. Again, that's what my suspicious brain says - I'm sure there are other plausible scenarios (including that the breeder was just having a bad day). I'd say move on and find someone who is open / transparent in sharing info.
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 05:24 AM
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You were entirely reasonable. Just move on.

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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa Brill View Post
How old is the Dam now? If she very close to 2, then maybe Karen's ideas on why they don't have final scans for her would make sense. But I guess I'm the more suspicious person here because I read 'they tested everyone else, but don't post the results for the Dam... I asked for them and they sent me an incomplete scan... I asked again and I got the whole scan but immediately got kicked out because I didn't "trust" the breeder'

In my suspicious brain that set off bells. We don't share the info, when pushed we share a bad copy of it, when pushed again we bring out the "you don't trust me". Well, why should you trust her? You're a potential customer - after you agree to work with someone then maybe trust comes in, but in my experience someone who throws around the "you don't trust me so we can't work together" when you've just asked for information usually does that because they're hiding something. Again, that's what my suspicious brain says - I'm sure there are other plausible scenarios (including that the breeder was just having a bad day). I'd say move on and find someone who is open / transparent in sharing info.
I agree. I was just trying to put the kindest spin on it that I could.


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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa Brill View Post
How old is the Dam now? If she very close to 2, then maybe Karen's ideas on why they don't have final scans for her would make sense. But I guess I'm the more suspicious person here because I read 'they tested everyone else, but don't post the results for the Dam... I asked for them and they sent me an incomplete scan... I asked again and I got the whole scan but immediately got kicked out because I didn't "trust" the breeder'

In my suspicious brain that set off bells. We don't share the info, when pushed we share a bad copy of it, when pushed again we bring out the "you don't trust me". Well, why should you trust her? You're a potential customer - after you agree to work with someone then maybe trust comes in, but in my experience someone who throws around the "you don't trust me so we can't work together" when you've just asked for information usually does that because they're hiding something. Again, that's what my suspicious brain says - I'm sure there are other plausible scenarios (including that the breeder was just having a bad day). I'd say move on and find someone who is open / transparent in sharing info.
Oh I definitely had a lot of suspicious thoughts, too! It sounds to me like hip issues are being hidden, but I just don’t want to assume the worst since it’s hard to be objective outside of the situation. In this case, though, even assuming the best, it doesn’t sound like a good fit.

I don’t mean to imply that you need to be best friends with your breeder (although that would be awesome!) but if the personality and communications styles are so different that common questions are misconstrued, what kind of important information between the breeder and buyer is going to get lost in the future?
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-22-2019, 08:09 AM
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It sounds like youíre concerned that if you ask the same questions of another breeder something similar might happen. It shouldnít. Asking politely for what health tests have been done and following up on any missing ones, is perfectly reasonable. Someone is asking you to spend a lot of money and make a long term commitment to an animal. Health testing results are legitimate questions.

Could you run into another breeder who doesnít want to work with you because you care about health testing? Yes. But the right breeder will care about it as much as you do.

Good luck. youíll find the breeder for you.

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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-22-2019, 11:09 AM
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I will be taking the other viewpoint here. I donít believe everything should be judged on what tests have been performed or not. If that is what is important to you, by all means make all your decisions based on it. We have had testing done in the past for breeders, which caused stress for us & our pet. Did this help our pet, or her breeding program? Trust your instincts, they are usually right. Try not to put the breeder on trial. Itís not going to gain you much.

All the tests in the world have not changed the fact that almost all Cavaliers will have mitral valve disease at some point in their life. Sooner or later can not be determined as a puppy, it just will happen. Do breeder websites, or dog show descriptions of the breed tell you this? Probably not.

We got out of breeding Rocky Mountain horses due to inherent eye problems which were most pronounced in the preferred chocolate/flax color. Breeders knew that this color presented the most problems, but wait......itís beautiful & thatís what the buyer wants. Iím pretty sure if you visit current breederís sites, they wonít be talking about the eye problems. Eye Diseases Associated With Specific Horse Breeds

Hard to imagine that hip problems are a big concern when it comes to Havanese. I wish people put as much time into considering the health pedigree of their own mate with whom I assume they will procreate, as they do for their dog, which most wonít breed anway. If there is an inherent problem in any breed, I doubt if it will be changed or eliminated any time soon, testing or not. Fortunately Havanese are relatively blessed so far as I know, with few distinct problems. Leave it up to man though, & it will probably eventually happen. Ever notice that in nature cardinals mate with cardinals, woodchucks with woodchucks, & on & on. Only domesticated animals are bred to other breeds, which makes us look like the creators of anything our hearts desire. It doesnít always end well. End of diatribe, & thatís why itís called a forum.
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-25-2019, 08:28 AM
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I agree with @Sam I Am . You're looking for a pet not a dog to breed. Find a breeder whose breeding dogs you like and pick a puppy.
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