Havanese Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Zoya, Ricky's mom
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi. I am hoping someone can help me with dog law or animal welfare in WA State. I went to look at an older male Havanese pup (prior to reading everything on this forum) and am horrified at how he is being kept. This is long, I apologize in advance.

Prior to meeting with this breeder we had many phone calls and emails. I asked if he was socialized with children, if he was aloof, preferred dogs or people, or if he had a past history health/personality history I should know of. My husband saw the pictures she sent us and made the comment, “He looks like a sad little puppy (he is very intuitive).” She laughed when I questioned about him being 'sad' and reassured me "he was a happy pup that loves kids and would fit nicely with our family dynamic." I asked many more questions and she spent time reassuring me and answering all my questions. I felt like I could trust her (although in hindsight, I felt uneasy too) and decided that I wanted to put a deposit on the pup to hold him until we could visit him a week later. This was her requirement to provide an adress to her kennel (big red flag, now I know).

I arrived at her house and met the little guy. He was crouched close to the floor and wouldn’t move. He refused to come to me, or my children – even after offering treats and spending close to two hours with him. My kids walked up to him and attempted to hug him and he started shaking. He darted from their arms and ran away with his tail between his legs.

They (woman and her children) told me that he had just had his first bath and blow dry (he is 22 weeks old, you would think he would have been bathed several times?) and that he had never “been in the house.” He was very, very unresponsive, and maybe even deaf? She brought one of his littermates in the house to “liven him up” and he then he changed and became very alive. Once the littermate was removed from the environment he went back to being unresponsive. Seems he only responds to dogs (kennel syndrome?)?

I was honest with her “that he seemed to be very antisocial, and that there was potential for fear biting based on his behavior -that I have children and wouldn’t risk bringing in a dog into my home with that behavior. That I did not want a pup that I was so unsocial.” She proceeded to explain that her kids do most of the kennel work (they are homeschooled) and that they knew more about the dogs. She then had her children (ages 19, 17, 10, 7?) come into the house to tell me about the pup and why he was a good fit for our family – and “that he is a very happy and nice dog. That he would be the perfect lap dog because he doesn’t move, and that docile dogs are smarter than active ones. That maybe we should take two (implying he would be happy with another dog).”

I told her I wasn’t interested in him (or any of her dogs) and she offered to let me see several young pups, and quickly brought them in with my kids. Surprisingly, my kids loved the puppies but still wanted the older dog. I felt very uncomfortable, and didn’t want to stay any longer so I told her I was unsure, and wanted to talk with her when my kids were not around. That I would call her later. I got up to leave and she insisted that I have a tour of her kennel, and the tour from hell began.

There was a female dog in a crate in her kitchen that was nursing 3 week old pups. The mother dog barked ferociously anytime someone walked past her crate even though it was covered with a blanket – which seemed abnormal to me. They didn’t console the mom dog or reassure her that it was ok, just told her to “Stop" - she stopped barking but was growling.

She then led me behind her house with the 20 week old male pup under her arm. She has a small detached barn/shed with multiple attached chain link kennels. The first kennel contained a small male and female Havanese. Their outside area was concrete and they were standing in water (it was raining) and barking aggressively. There wasn’t an outdoor covered area for them. They were obviously stressed and followed me, pacing back and forth barking as I passed them. The female was charging towards the fence. She told me that she was doing this because she is protective of her babies (she had another younger litter in the shed), and for my kids to keep their hands next to their bodies. The adult Havanese' coats were ragged at best and very scraggly – the mom dog had long nails.

As we passed the Havanese, there were several other kennels full of Basset dogs and MANY basset puppies. They hardly had enough space to run around, and only had plastic dog igloos and random plastic tarps as covers from the elements.

She led me to the 20 week old Havanese pup's “home” and he was very excited to see his 3 little Havanese friends (littermates?) running along the small perimeter – his little tail started wagging. She put him back inside. His “home” had a plastic tarp “roof”, but the entire perimeter was chain link and not protected from the elements. They had an old plastic dog igloo for “protection” without blankets or anything else.

It became immediately apparent (he was supposedly born in October) that these little guys spent the entire winter outside, cold, alone, and without love. I was sick and very uncomfortable. Two older bassets next door to the Havanese kennel were begging for attention and I felt nauseous.

I told her we had to leave and ushered my kids quickly to our car. My eyes are open like never before, and my heart is broken. I had a long conversation with my children about what was wrong with that place, and how cruel it was. I can’t stop thinking about all of the dogs there.

I think that she is oblivious that this is wrong considering she offered me a tour, and proudly showed me her “stock?” But all of it is so wrong in my book. Do any of you know if there is anything I can do? She advertises them as "AKC quality dogs" – does this sound like a place that the AKC would approve of? Is there a rescue group that could investigate her? Is there anything I can do to help these dogs?

I so wanted to adopt the 20 week old pup to save him – but one of these threads a wise poster said “not to give these people any money.”
I want to thank everyone who takes time to post in these forums. I am so grateful for the amount of information I am gathering, and things I am learning (both positive and negative).

This is my first time buying a pup. I didn’t know what to look for or look out for until coming here. I have learned so much from all of you and am very grateful. I now know the importance of finding a good breeder, and our family and future pup will better off because of this!!! Thank you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,278 Posts
so heartbreaking... I wish there was a way to help these pups. Hopefully someone will chime in with some advice of what to do?
I am SO happy and proud of you for doing your research and finding someone that will raise your future pup the way they SHOULD be raised, with LOVE inside a home with a FAMILY.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
As hard as it it, please don't "buy" his freedom. That gives them working capital to continue. I'm sorry you had to endure this.
 

·
Dave T
Joined
·
10,876 Posts
This sort of breeding pisses me off. All I will say is report them to your local SPCA and see if they will do anything.
 

·
LINDA
Joined
·
6,496 Posts
This is so sad. I wonder if the cops could do anything.

We have an animal controller officer in my township. I called the cops on one neighbor of mine, who kept their puppy outside in a crate. It was winter and the dog was freezing. She was issued a couple warnings and the third time the dog was taken away or maybe she signed to give it up. The cop told me the pup went to a no kill shelter and he felt she would be adopted quickly. He told me the puppy was very sweet, even after what it had been through.
 

·
Dave T
Joined
·
10,876 Posts
good for you Linda.
 

·
Dave T
Joined
·
10,876 Posts
I hear ya. I had to give my neighbour **** the other day because she left her dog outside barking in the rain. Says she fell asleep. You know what they say about excuses ehh. ?
 

·
Linda - Sasha's Mom
Joined
·
283 Posts
Hi. I am hoping someone can help me with dog law or animal welfare in WA State. I went to look at an older male Havanese pup (prior to reading everything on this forum) and am horrified at how he is being kept. This is long, I apologize in advance.

Prior to meeting with this breeder we had many phone calls and emails. I asked if he was socialized with children, if he was aloof, preferred dogs or people, or if he had a past history health/personality history I should know of. My husband saw the pictures she sent us and made the comment, "He looks like a sad little puppy (he is very intuitive)." She laughed when I questioned about him being 'sad' and reassured me "he was a happy pup that loves kids and would fit nicely with our family dynamic." I asked many more questions and she spent time reassuring me and answering all my questions. I felt like I could trust her (although in hindsight, I felt uneasy too) and decided that I wanted to put a deposit on the pup to hold him until we could visit him a week later. This was her requirement to provide an adress to her kennel (big red flag, now I know).

I arrived at her house and met the little guy. He was crouched close to the floor and wouldn't move. He refused to come to me, or my children - even after offering treats and spending close to two hours with him. My kids walked up to him and attempted to hug him and he started shaking. He darted from their arms and ran away with his tail between his legs.

They (woman and her children) told me that he had just had his first bath and blow dry (he is 22 weeks old, you would think he would have been bathed several times?) and that he had never "been in the house." He was very, very unresponsive, and maybe even deaf? She brought one of his littermates in the house to "liven him up" and he then he changed and became very alive. Once the littermate was removed from the environment he went back to being unresponsive. Seems he only responds to dogs (kennel syndrome?)?

I was honest with her "that he seemed to be very antisocial, and that there was potential for fear biting based on his behavior -that I have children and wouldn't risk bringing in a dog into my home with that behavior. That I did not want a pup that I was so unsocial." She proceeded to explain that her kids do most of the kennel work (they are homeschooled) and that they knew more about the dogs. She then had her children (ages 19, 17, 10, 7?) come into the house to tell me about the pup and why he was a good fit for our family - and "that he is a very happy and nice dog. That he would be the perfect lap dog because he doesn't move, and that docile dogs are smarter than active ones. That maybe we should take two (implying he would be happy with another dog)."

I told her I wasn't interested in him (or any of her dogs) and she offered to let me see several young pups, and quickly brought them in with my kids. Surprisingly, my kids loved the puppies but still wanted the older dog. I felt very uncomfortable, and didn't want to stay any longer so I told her I was unsure, and wanted to talk with her when my kids were not around. That I would call her later. I got up to leave and she insisted that I have a tour of her kennel, and the tour from hell began.

There was a female dog in a crate in her kitchen that was nursing 3 week old pups. The mother dog barked ferociously anytime someone walked past her crate even though it was covered with a blanket - which seemed abnormal to me. They didn't console the mom dog or reassure her that it was ok, just told her to "Stop" - she stopped barking but was growling.

She then led me behind her house with the 20 week old male pup under her arm. She has a small detached barn/shed with multiple attached chain link kennels. The first kennel contained a small male and female Havanese. Their outside area was concrete and they were standing in water (it was raining) and barking aggressively. There wasn't an outdoor covered area for them. They were obviously stressed and followed me, pacing back and forth barking as I passed them. The female was charging towards the fence. She told me that she was doing this because she is protective of her babies (she had another younger litter in the shed), and for my kids to keep their hands next to their bodies. The adult Havanese' coats were ragged at best and very scraggly - the mom dog had long nails.

As we passed the Havanese, there were several other kennels full of Basset dogs and MANY basset puppies. They hardly had enough space to run around, and only had plastic dog igloos and random plastic tarps as covers from the elements.

She led me to the 20 week old Havanese pup's "home" and he was very excited to see his 3 little Havanese friends (littermates?) running along the small perimeter - his little tail started wagging. She put him back inside. His "home" had a plastic tarp "roof", but the entire perimeter was chain link and not protected from the elements. They had an old plastic dog igloo for "protection" without blankets or anything else.

It became immediately apparent (he was supposedly born in October) that these little guys spent the entire winter outside, cold, alone, and without love. I was sick and very uncomfortable. Two older bassets next door to the Havanese kennel were begging for attention and I felt nauseous.

I told her we had to leave and ushered my kids quickly to our car. My eyes are open like never before, and my heart is broken. I had a long conversation with my children about what was wrong with that place, and how cruel it was. I can't stop thinking about all of the dogs there.

I think that she is oblivious that this is wrong considering she offered me a tour, and proudly showed me her "stock?" But all of it is so wrong in my book. Do any of you know if there is anything I can do? She advertises them as "AKC quality dogs" - does this sound like a place that the AKC would approve of? Is there a rescue group that could investigate her? Is there anything I can do to help these dogs?

I so wanted to adopt the 20 week old pup to save him - but one of these threads a wise poster said "not to give these people any money."
I want to thank everyone who takes time to post in these forums. I am so grateful for the amount of information I am gathering, and things I am learning (both positive and negative).

This is my first time buying a pup. I didn't know what to look for or look out for until coming here. I have learned so much from all of you and am very grateful. I now know the importance of finding a good breeder, and our family and future pup will better off because of this!!! Thank you.
I think you need to call animal control in your area also the media. I live in the Renton area and work in Shoreline, where is this breeder I am willing to help in any way I can. Send me a pm and I will do some research to see who might be able to help. Linda
 

·
Quincy's Mom-Vinnie too!
Joined
·
9,923 Posts
I would contact your local animal control/animal shelter. They can direct you further if need be.

:rant:This is also the kind of stuff that irritates the hel out of me.:rant: I tell ya--some people shouldn't be allowed to own a dam goldfish,let alone dogs!:rant:
 

·
Linda - Sasha's Mom
Joined
·
283 Posts
RCW 16.52.310 this the Statute that governs animal breeders in WA State please provide me with more info and we will see what we can do. Linda
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,941 Posts
This makes me sick. Whenever I hear something like this, I want the cruel people who perpetrate these travesties to understand the extreme pain and horror they cause. Their punishment should fit the crime. They need to spend ten days locked in a small enclosure, out in the elements, with no human contact, no way out, and not enough food or water. They're despicable.
 

·
Roscoe and Stella's Mom
Joined
·
1,203 Posts
This story nearly brought me to tears. Poor little babies, outside all winter! And the worst part is they have no idea what "love" is. I really hope there is something that can be done, please keep us posted!
 

·
Zoya, Ricky's mom
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi everyone – thanks for your support and responding. I wanted to give an update. I OCD’d this weekend on all of WA states RCWs about dog breeding – some of which are pretty questionable: “Animals with a vicious or aggressive disposition must never be placed in an enclosure with another animal, except for breeding purposes.”
Why on heck would anyone want to breed a vicious animal????

They do look like they are in violation of :
(ii) Housing facilities must enable all dogs to remain dry and clean;

(iii) Housing facilities must provide shelter and protection from extreme temperatures and weather conditions that may be uncomfortable or hazardous to the dogs;

(iv) Housing facilities must provide sufficient shade to shelter all the dogs housed in the primary enclosure at one time;

The local Animal Services for the county has just paid this woman a visit and made a few sightings that they requested be fixed by this summer (wth??). I contacted the Havanese Rescue Inc. the same day I posted this thread, and someone got back to me the next day. I have to say, I am really impressed with the Havanese rescue staff. The woman I spoke with is going to start investigating the breeder and will keep me in the loop as to what she discovers and the process. I will update this thread as I find out more.

It looks as though this breeder is not in AKC compliance, so this is the first step. I don’t want to give this breeder a heads up or the opportunity to look like she is in compliance (or hide dogs) so I am being discrete about who she is until the rescue has time to make more headway. Just please be wary of breeders in the Southern part of Washington.
Poor little dogs. I think about them every day.
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
27,660 Posts
Hi everyone - thanks for your support and responding. I wanted to give an update. I OCD'd this weekend on all of WA states RCWs about dog breeding - some of which are pretty questionable: "Animals with a vicious or aggressive disposition must never be placed in an enclosure with another animal, except for breeding purposes."
Why on heck would anyone want to breed a vicious animal????
I'm sure that part is addressing dog fighting.

The other stuff, minimal as it is, is pretty typical of state dog breeding laws. Even then, although we all know cruelty when we see it, what's appropriate for one breed is not necessarily appropriate for another. For instance, it's TOTALLY inappropriate to leave little companion dogs like Havs out in the cold all winter. OTOH, it's completely appropriate to leave Huskies or Malamutes in outdoor enclosures with nothing more than an "igloo" for protection in the winter. Even with the igloo available, you'll probably find them asleep more often under the snow.<g> On the flip side, though, except in very cool climates, Huskies and Mals will probably need air conditioning to be comfortable in the summer time.

You're a good person to be trying so hard to help these little guys!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,845 Posts
That makes me so sad. Thank you for turning her in.
I PM you with a breeder in wash and also gave suggestions to other Havanese breeders. I don't know where you live southern wash? My breeder is from the tri citys is that far?
 

·
Zoya, Ricky's mom
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi everyone. No update yet.

@ Krandall - that is what I was thinking - there should be some consideration about the breed when animal control (services) is looking at a situation. I don't think that the animal control responders for her county know what breed these little guys are (or even know about Havanese), or their requirements for care. After the Havanese Rescue staff looks into this, I will call and make a complaint with the animal service that visited her house and will inform them that the pups are Havanese, and that they are not outdoor dogs. Then it will be on record that that animal service has been fully informed (I will do the complaint via email and follow up with phone).

Hi Suzi - Tri Cities is not too far!! We are willing to drive for the right breeder :)!!! Thank you everyone for letting me know about the positive experiences you have had with your breeders. I have a feeling the right breeder and pup is just around the corner for us. I can't wait to be writing about my future pups funny personality or antics, training, and day-to-day stuff - rather than having to write about unethical breeders.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,845 Posts
Hi everyone. No update yet.

@ Krandall - that is what I was thinking - there should be some consideration about the breed when animal control (services) is looking at a situation. I don't think that the animal control responders for her county know what breed these little guys are (or even know about Havanese), or their requirements for care. After the Havanese Rescue staff looks into this, I will call and make a complaint with the animal service that visited her house and will inform them that the pups are Havanese, and that they are not outdoor dogs. Then it will be on record that that animal service has been fully informed (I will do the complaint via email and follow up with phone).

Hi Suzi - Tri Cities is not too far!! We are willing to drive for the right breeder :)!!! Thank you everyone for letting me know about the positive experiences you have had with your breeders. I have a feeling the right breeder and pup is just around the corner for us. I can't wait to be writing about my future pups funny personality or antics, training, and day-to-day stuff - rather than having to write about unethical breeders.
I talked to Zoeys Breeder and she has 3 boys and 1 girl. They sound really sweet and just started eating puppy food. She said they are sleeping threw the night not even 6 weeks yet:) One sounds especially nice a little red sable tri color boy. The girl is black tri color. She said all there temperaments are good sort of mellow. :) Puppy fever here!
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top