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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Scheiris talks a good line, but his is a puppy factory. While we were looking he put out two litters in a month.
Then he and his wife had us sign a silly and onerous contract saying we had to show the dog and he become a champion. No pressure here.
Turns out that he didn’t have a good vet check up before he delivered the pup to us.
His second testicle hadn’t dropped, so we incurred a cost and the dog couldn’t be shown.
Will he pay for the operation? Radio silent.
Stay away from Scheiris and find a reputable breeder.
 

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Metrowest, MA
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Scheiris talks a good line, but his is a puppy factory. While we were looking he put out two litters in a month.
Then he and his wife had us sign a silly and onerous contract saying we had to show the dog and he become a champion. No pressure here.
Turns out that he didn’t have a good vet check up before he delivered the pup to us.
His second testicle hadn’t dropped, so we incurred a cost and the dog couldn’t be shown.
Will he pay for the operation? Radio silent.
Stay away from Scheiris and find a reputable breeder.
While you may or may not be happy with David Scheiris, and he SHOULD be in contact with you, assuming that you were polite in your communication with him, two litters in a month does not make a “factory” breeder. If you have two bitches living in the same home, they will cycle together. Like girls living in a dorm room. Facts of life. It is not at all uncommon for a breeder to decide to breed two girls at the same time, and get all their “breeding activity”, (which is a TON of work!) out of the way in a shorter window of time. Nothing wrong there.

Not sure why you are saying the puppy wasn’t vet checked, what evidence you have of that, or what you think the consequences were. If this is about the testicle… while many puppies have both testicle at 8 weeks, (and it doesn’t take a vet to feel them) it also doesn’t mean that a puppy WON’T have both testicles if he doesn’t have them at 8 weeks. So I’m not sure what the significance is of this comment.

Every good breeder has a contract. You, as a buyer, have a few choices. Sign it as it is, negotiate changes to items in the contract that you find unacceptable, or walk away. This is true is ANY business deal. A contract prevents surprises. The Scheiris’ are show breeder/handlers. It is not surprising that they want as many of the puppies they produce as possible to be out there, representing them, in the show world. If that was not what you wanted, there are PLENTY of other breeders who place less emphasis on showing, snd perhaps you should have chosen one of those.

As far as the undescended testicle is concerned, that’s too bad, but it happens! It’s not the end of the world, is not a big deal, and is CERTAINLY not a health hazard for a pet dog. It ONLY means that the dog must be neutered and that the neuter is SLIGHTLY more complicated. (Akin to spaying a female puppy… NOT a big deal!) I eould assume that if this dog was destined to be a pet, the end goal was to neuter him anyway?

What should be done depends on how your contract was written. It SOUNDS like you weren’t interested in showing to start with, but that the only way you could get this puppy from David was to show it. If so, the undecended testicle lets you off the hook! The dog is not eligible to be shown! Be happy! (But NOT the Scheiris’ fault!)

If you bought this puppy because you wanted a show/breeding dog, (that isn’t what your post sounded like) it’s another story. Your contract should state what happens if there is a problem with the puppy that makes it impossible to finish its championship, and what happens next. In most cases, the puppy is returned to the seller, and the purchase price is refunded OR the puppy is replaced, if that is possible. The fact of the matter is that NO breeder can do more than sell a “show prospect” there is no way of knowing whether a puppy will grow into their show potential, be a dog that struggles just to finish, becomes the next Bono, …or has their bite go off or an undecended testicle put them completely out of contention. More dogs DON’T make it as show dogs than do!

I’m not sure what your goal was, coming on a forum as a brand new member and, first post, panning a very well known professional handler/breeder. I know you are angry and upset. If this is a pet puppy, enjoy your puppy and move on. There is really nothing to see here. If this was supposed to be a breeding dog for you, I would guess that you are new to the world of showing and breeding. I am sure you are disappointed that your show prospect didn’t work out. Believe me, it happens to EVERYONE! I know it can be disappoining. I am not sure the Scheiris’ did anything wrong here, but I AM sure that coming onto a public forum where you are not known, just to blast them, is not the way to solve your problem.
 

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What should be done depends on how your contract was written. It SOUNDS like you weren’t interested in showing to start with, but that the only way you could get this puppy from David was to show it. If so, the undecended testicle lets you off the hook! The dog is not eligible to be shown! Be happy! (But NOT the Scheiris’ fault!)

If you bought this puppy because you wanted a show/breeding dog, (that isn’t what your post sounded like) it’s another story.
This is what I thought when I read your post. Since an undescended testicle isn’t a major health issue anyway, and it may still come down, it might work out really well that there’s a reason the puppy could be sold to you as a pet instead of showing.

I’m unclear if you do have the puppy and he’s older now, or if you’re still considering a puppy and frustrated with the process with this particular breeder.
 

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I expect most Professional Handlers have their eye on becoming a Judge. Most Judges came up through being a Handler.

To become a Judge, you have to have bred so many litters, and finished a minimum number of Champions out of those litters. The easiest way to do that is to require buyers to show their dogs. So, you can see why a Handler would both breed dogs, and want them shown.

That's also the reason why Handlers are favored in the ring. The Judges have been there.

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
While you may or may not be happy with David Scheiris, and he SHOULD be in contact with you, assuming that you were polite in your communication with him, two litters in a month does not make a “factory” breeder. If you have two bitches living in the same home, they will cycle together. Like girls living in a dorm room. Facts of life. It is not at all uncommon for a breeder to decide to breed two girls at the same time, and get all their “breeding activity”, (which is a TON of work!) out of the way in a shorter window of time. Nothing wrong there.

Not sure why you are saying the puppy wasn’t vet checked, what evidence you have of that, or what you think the consequences were. If this is about the testicle… while many puppies have both testicle at 8 weeks, (and it doesn’t take a vet to feel them) it also doesn’t mean that a puppy WON’T have both testicles if he doesn’t have them at 8 weeks. So I’m not sure what the significance is of this comment.

Every good breeder has a contract. You, as a buyer, have a few choices. Sign it as it is, negotiate changes to items in the contract that you find unacceptable, or walk away. This is true is ANY business deal. A contract prevents surprises. The Scheiris’ are show breeder/handlers. It is not surprising that they want as many of the puppies they produce as possible to be out there, representing them, in the show world. If that was not what you wanted, there are PLENTY of other breeders who place less emphasis on showing, snd perhaps you should have chosen one of those.

As far as the undescended testicle is concerned, that’s too bad, but it happens! It’s not the end of the world, is not a big deal, and is CERTAINLY not a health hazard for a pet dog. It ONLY means that the dog must be neutered and that the neuter is SLIGHTLY more complicated. (Akin to spaying a female puppy… NOT a big deal!) I eould assume that if this dog was destined to be a pet, the end goal was to neuter him anyway?

What should be done depends on how your contract was written. It SOUNDS like you weren’t interested in showing to start with, but that the only way you could get this puppy from David was to show it. If so, the undecended testicle lets you off the hook! The dog is not eligible to be shown! Be happy! (But NOT the Scheiris’ fault!)

If you bought this puppy because you wanted a show/breeding dog, (that isn’t what your post sounded like) it’s another story. Your contract should state what happens if there is a problem with the puppy that makes it impossible to finish its championship, and what happens next. In most cases, the puppy is returned to the seller, and the purchase price is refunded OR the puppy is replaced, if that is possible. The fact of the matter is that NO breeder can do more than sell a “show prospect” there is no way of knowing whether a puppy will grow into their show potential, be a dog that struggles just to finish, becomes the next Bono, …or has their bite go off or an undecended testicle put them completely out of contention. More dogs DON’T make it as show dogs than do!

I’m not sure what your goal was, coming on a forum as a brand new member and, first post, panning a very well known professional handler/breeder. I know you are angry and upset. If this is a pet puppy, enjoy your puppy and move on. There is really nothing to see here. If this was supposed to be a breeding dog for you, I would guess that you are new to the world of showing and breeding. I am sure you are disappointed that your show prospect didn’t work out. Believe me, it happens to EVERYONE! I know it can be disappoining. I am not sure the Scheiris’ did anything wrong here, but I AM sure that coming onto a public forum where you are not known, just to blast them, is not the way to solve your problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It is surprising to me that an experienced breeder could deliver a puppy of over 3 months old without knowing that the dog had an undescended testicle or that he would not have checked as it seems elementary and crucial.
Is it not obvious?
Yes it worked out better for us as Scheiris demanded that we show the pup and attain championship status. That was quite a tall order snd impossible in the end.
No the breeder has not responded to three polite emails, although he did suggest (contrary to two vet opinions) that we not castrate the pup until he was over a year old. Once I sent the bill he went radio silent.
 

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although he did suggest (contrary to two vet opinions) that we not castrate the pup until he was over a year old. Once I sent the bill he went radio silent.
* I am not comparing our experience to yours and this post is not intended to imply that they are the same but they are somewhat similar.

We purchased our Ricky Ricardo from his previous owner (who was not his breeder) when he was 9 months old. He was already a veteran in the AKC Conformation show ring, a winner, and well on his way to his championship. The problem is that he could retract his testicles when he was under stress and did so occassionally while being shown. This can result in a permanent disqualification from AKC Conformation competition. His owner sold him to us with full disclosure of his medical condition because he was no longer qualified for breeding stock and the requirement that we have him neutered after 12 months old. We fell in love with him on the spot and took him home with us that day.

Upon returning to our house, we took him to our Vet for an examination. Our Vet found a number of minor medical conditions which were corrected with medications (several hundred dollars from our pocket, the previous owner refused to pay for) but he could find no indication of undescended testicles. Ricky appeared to be perfectly normal. However, since we agreed to have him neutered, his Vet recommended that it be done as soon as possible. The Vet said that there was no official, scientifically reviewed research that supported waiting for one year to neuter a male Havanese (this was 7 years ago). Therefore we followed our Vet's advice and had him neutered at our expense at 11 months. Of course his previous owner refused to pay, but we had agreed to have it done at our expense. His previous owner was very upset that we had him neutered against her wishes even though she no longer owned him.

Ricky went on to a successful 'career' in AKC Obedience competition with several blue ribbons (un-neutered males are not a requirement there). But more importantly he has become a world champion as a fabulous member of our family with a charismatic personality and is a favorite of everyone who meets him. So @Bilbo I recommend you just pay your dog's medical expenses and enjoy your fabulous Havanese male and forget about his breeder. Your dog will suffer no lasting effects from being neutered and he will bring much happiness to your life.
 

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Were you really wanting to show or breed this puppy? If no, just love this guy to pieces and hope that he will be a healthy pet. The timeline is not clear but did your vet notice the testicle problem immediately after the purchase? If so, I would think that a reputable breeder would have offered to take him back and give a refund if the dog was sold to you with this problem.
I want to say that I had a bad experience with this breeder also and am thrilled that I did not get a dog from him. So it worked out in my favor.
 

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It is surprising to me that an experienced breeder could deliver a puppy of over 3 months old without knowing that the dog had an undescended testicle or that he would not have checked as it seems elementary and crucial.
Is it not obvious?
Yes it worked out better for us as Scheiris demanded that we show the pup and attain championship status. That was quite a tall order snd impossible in the end.
No the breeder has not responded to three polite emails, although he did suggest (contrary to two vet opinions) that we not castrate the pup until he was over a year old. Once I sent the bill he went radio silent.
It is a pretty standard recommendation BY MOST MODERN VETS that are not part of the “rescue” community” and with puppies that are in the hands of responsible owners, who won’t let the dog reproduce irresponsibly, which I will assume you are, that puppies be physically mature and allowed the benefit of their adult hormones before they are spayed or neutered. There is a mounting body of evidence that ccl/acl tears (which are NOT limited to large dog breeds) are much more common among dogs that are desexed before sexual maturity. There are also other benefits to waiting for sexual maturity that have been gone over on the forum many times, but I won’t go into in detail here, as the deed seems to have already been done. In any case, each dog is different, and every individual dog/family is going to have a different experience. Everyone has different reasons for their decision.

Yes, as I said, you can feel whether the testicles have descended on an eight week old puppy pretty easily. What you DON’T know is whether they WILL descend. (or stay down) He COULD have had both testicles at that point… who knows? Sending the bill to David was inappropriate. It was never David’s responsibility to pay. From your perspective, he was wrong not to respond. Form his perspective, what could he say? He had no responsibility to pay that bill.

I am NOT saying he shouldn’t be a better communicator. I don’t know him personally at all. But I am not sure that, other than paying all your bills, and not writing the contract the way it was written, or giving you the puppy or something, (which, from what you have told us was a perfectly standard contract for a show puppy bought from a show breeder/handler) there is anything he could have said or done that would have made you happy.

As I said in my first response, you had choices. You did not have to buy a puppy from this breeder. I think your story is a good reminder to ANYONE buying a Havanese puppy. You ARE a consumer. You are buying a PRODUCT (even if it “feels” funny to think of it that way. You have choices. Make sure you get a contract up-front. READ and UNDERSTAND tour contract. If you don’t understand something, talk to the breeder about it. If they can explain it to your satisfaction, fine. If not, will they modify the contract? Many times, if it is something minor, they will. (For instance if you can’t pick the puppy up by a certain date). If you really don’t like or can’t live with something in the contract, WALK AWAY! There are other breeders and other puppies. This one was not meant for you.
 
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