Havanese Forum banner
1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Owned by a Havallon
Joined
·
3,342 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering if there is a test that can detect the possibility of IVDD developing in a dog. IVDD can be such a heart break and severely impact the quality of life of both dog and owner. Having been involved with Dodgerlist.com which is dedicated to helping dogs and owners deal with IVDD, I witnessed first hand the devastation that IVDD can cause. It occurs in many breeds, although Dachshunds are most known for it. It does not typically show up until the dog is older so the parents may appear fine at breeding age.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,832 Posts
I didn't know, but did some searching. Looks like it's caused by the same gene as CD is caused by-a retrogene of the FGF4 gene.


I don't know if there is a test for it, or not. Even if the location of the gene is known, it still costs a lot to develop a test for it.
 

·
Owned by a Havallon
Joined
·
3,342 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I didn't know, but did some searching. Looks like it's caused by the same gene as CD is caused by-a retrogene of the FGF4 gene.


I don't know if there is a test for it, or not. Even if the location of the gene is known, it still costs a lot to develop a test for it.
I found this article which makes it sound like there is a test if I understand it correctly.

 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
I didn't know, but did some searching. Looks like it's caused by the same gene as CD is caused by-a retrogene of the FGF4 gene.


I don't know if there is a test for it, or not. Even if the location of the gene is known, it still costs a lot to develop a test for it.
There is a test for it… UC Davis offers it, and it is separate from the CD test. I have a friend who is Veterinarian as well as a PhD research geneticist. Unfortunately she says the problem with these tests, as well as many of the other tests that we have for “dog diseases”, is that theses diseases show a pattern of incomplete dominance. And most, likely more than one gene and possibly conformational issues involved as well. (Especially in IVDD we know that has more than one gene) And we just do not know how the genes affect actual progression of the disease process in the animals. There are dogs that have the gene(s) that never develop these diseases, and animals that do not have the gene(s) that do develop the diseases. People find out that their dog carries the gene and worry, often unnecessarily.

This is the same situation as with Degenerative Myelopathy in Corgis and GSD’s. (For those unfamiliar, in this horrible disease, the dogs completely lose feeling and control of their hind limbs over time) A gene implicated in DM has been well known for quite some time. But not how to use this information to best effect. The Corgi people have chosen to test for DM and not breed two carriers to each other. Which is great, but they still produce DM dogs among the non-carrier population. So there is probably more than one gene involved. There was a hue and cry by some to remove all dogs carrying the gene from the gene pool. Fortunately, wiser minds prevailed. Obviously, everyone agrees that a clinically affected dog, or a dog that has PRODUCED a clinically affected dog should not be bred. But purebred dogs are finite gene pools. They MUST be preserved. That means not narrowing the gene pool any more than absolutely necessary. So breeding carriers to non-carriers.

In the case of CD dogs in our breed, soaping is a simple way of weeding out them out as far as I am concerned. I am pretty convinced of that. I am not TOTALLY convinced that IVDD is not a problem of too-long backed dogs, and therefore conformational as well. OTOH, since I am doing full color and coat testing on Ducky anyway, it is not much more to add the IVDD and CD tests on, so I’m doing those too. I figure it is like testing for the short hair and curly genes, if you KNOW your dogs don’t even carry the gene(s) you don’t need to even think about that piece any more. If they do… well you have another piece of information to guide breeding decisions.

Here is the link to that testing on the UC Davis site: Embark for Breeders Dog DNA Test Kit

I’m not sure if you and Pam are aware of it, Tom, but UC Davis has also recently price matched the Florida place that does all the Frenchie color testing. You can now do a COMPLETE color and coat panel (rather than paying per test) for a flat fee of $125.

But the bottom line is that my friend who is the geneticist has been warning all breeders to be VERY careful, and move VERY slowly in terms of removing any animals based on DNA testing. She said we know just enough to be dangerous at this point. We have too many breeds with too little diversity as it is. Dobermans already have so little diversity that EVERY DOG IN THE BREED has about the genetic diversity of siblings. There is no way out of that bottle neck without adding outside blood. Cavaliers are in the same mess With heartbreaking health consequences.

Our breed is lucky to have much more genetic diversity and, so far, a much healthier breed. PART of what it takes to maintain that is testing, that is true. But part is ALSO being very careful not to reduce our genetic diversity, by tossing out breeding animals based on DNA markers we do not fully understand.
 

·
Sophie
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
Not sure if someone who was a bit more present in the breed during the phenotypic crooked leg chondrodysplasia concern can weigh in, but insofar as the genetic CDPA test, of 54 Havanese with test results posted on OFA, 49 are CDPA/CDPA (Karen, I only saw one Panda/Ducky relative tested that I know of whose test was on OFA, but it may be worth asking to see if you can determine Ducky's genetics based on parentage to save yourself some $ 😉). One is N/CDPA, and 4 are N/N. I've done digging on this before... The dogs that are clear are all related, and in looking at the breeder, I'm not impressed with the quality of the dog and the minimal other health testing leads me to believe they are the type to just run a genetic panel and call the dog health tested.

Havanese are, by and large, a dwarf breed in that the vast majority are CDPA/CDPA. That's why breeding against the crooked leg phenotype is so important. It is essentially a "short leg gene". Of course, it's likely a polygenic trait, which is why it's wonderful that we have the CDDY (chondrodystrophy) test. While chondrodysplasia is and has been a buzzword in the breed for years, CDDY is the real sinister one that leads to abnormal cartilage and bone development and also indicates a greater IVDD risk.

As has been said, dogs that come back N/N on the CDDY test can still develop IVDD, and dogs who come back CDDY/CDDY may never develop that. IVDD is also multi factored, and the gene is only one piece of it.

That said, out of curiosity, I did have Brisket tested. He is clear of CDDY ☺
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
Not sure if someone who was a bit more present in the breed during the phenotypic crooked leg chondrodysplasia concern can weigh in, but insofar as the genetic CDPA test, of 54 Havanese with test results posted on OFA, 49 are CDPA/CDPA (Karen, I only saw one Panda/Ducky relative tested that I know of whose test was on OFA, but it may be worth asking to see if you can determine Ducky's genetics based on parentage to save yourself some $ 😉). One is N/CDPA, and 4 are N/N. I've done digging on this before... The dogs that are clear are all related, and in looking at the breeder, I'm not impressed with the quality of the dog and the minimal other health testing leads me to believe they are the type to just run a genetic panel and call the dog health tested.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say before... that our dogs almost all carry this gene. I know only one Havanese who doesn't, and she has the shortest (though straight) legs of any Havanese Ive ever met. Interestingly, she is an import form eastern Europe, and when recently bred to an American Havanese, they did DNA to look for relatedness, and there was none Like zero. How is THAT possible in this breed? ;) (no answer needed here)

Havanese are, by and large, a dwarf breed in that the vast majority are CDPA/CDPA. That's why breeding against the crooked leg phenotype is so important. It is essentially a "short leg gene". Of course, it's likely a polygenic trait, which is why it's wonderful that we have the CDDY (chondrodystrophy) test. While chondrodysplasia is and has been a buzzword in the breed for years, CDDY is the real sinister one that leads to abnormal cartilage and bone development and also indicates a greater IVDD risk.

As has been said, dogs that come back N/N on the CDDY test can still develop IVDD, and dogs who come back CDDY/CDDY may never develop that. IVDD is also multi factored, and the gene is only one piece of it.
'zactly.

That said, out of curiosity, I did have Brisket tested. He is clear of CDDY ☺
Yay! Did you test for IVDD also?
 
  • Like
Reactions: KarMar

·
Owned by a Havallon
Joined
·
3,342 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
Thanks @krandall and @KarMar for providing information on this subject. There are some studies linking early spay/neuter with development of IVDD. I wonder if this is one reason why some who are predisposed may be more likely to develop IVDD.


There are studies linking early spay/neuter to all sorts of skeletal and other health problems. It makes no sense to desex growing animals if you can possibly avoid it!
 

·
Sophie
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
Yay! Did you test for IVDD also?
That's the CDDY test that he's clear on! I didn't do CDPA because I figured it's safe enough to assume he's affected 🤣 I just ran an Embark panel because, with the sale it was on, testing IVDD risk and one color through another lab would have been the same as testing for all of the colors and other traits with Embark... The trade off is that they don't have CDPA in their panel, which was fine with me!

Not that I care about colors, but seeing as he was the only black and white in his litter and had both a clear red and a sable littermate... I was curious. Take my money! 😉
 
  • Haha
Reactions: krandall

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
That's the CDDY test that he's clear on! I didn't do CDPA because I figured it's safe enough to assume he's affected 🤣 I just ran an Embark panel because, with the sale it was on, testing IVDD risk and one color through another lab would have been the same as testing for all of the colors and other traits with Embark... The trade off is that they don't have CDPA in their panel, which was fine with me!

Not that I care about colors, but seeing as he was the only black and white in his litter and had both a clear red and a sable littermate... I was curious. Take my money! 😉
I DO care about color, because I don't care for chocolates. (for my own purposes) His sire carries chocolate, and IS sable. Since he is OBVIOUSLY "ee" and that covers up a lot of other things, and they now have the complete color and coat panel, I figured it was easier just to run that than to guess. I know he doesn't carry curly or shorthair. Someone else might WANT to use him if he carries chocolate. 🤷‍♀️ But a friend would like to use him with her B&W parti girl. Pretty likely he is SpSp and so is she, she does not carry "e", but she DOES carry chocolate, which she doesn't love either. So if he DOESN'T carry chocolate, it would be a guaranteed B&W parti litter. Not that it would be a deal breaker if he carries chocolate, but we'd both rather he didn't. ;)

ALTHOUGH... The chocolate he DOES carry is VERY dark with VERY good pigment, so there's that... (still would rather not take that gamble personally)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,273 Posts
...Havanese are, by and large, a dwarf breed in that the vast majority are CDPA/CDPA. That's why breeding against the crooked leg phenotype is so important. It is essentially a "short leg gene". Of course, it's likely a polygenic trait, which is why it's wonderful that we have the CDDY (chondrodystrophy) test. While chondrodysplasia is and has been a buzzword in the breed for years, CDDY is the real sinister one that leads to abnormal cartilage and bone development and also indicates a greater IVDD risk....
That makes it all make so much more sense now to me (the dwarf breed issue), especially for the bowing (and Perry's legs).
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
That makes it all make so much more sense now to me (the dwarf breed issue), especially for the bowing (and Perry's legs).

Except that THAT gene doesn't cause the bowing. The other gene does.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Melissa Brill

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,521 Posts
So with IVDD specifically, a dog can be tested for the marker but the majority of Havanese will test positive and not necessarily present symptoms? I remember someone mentioning that formal diagnosis of IVDD requires very expensive imaging. If a dog began to have IVDD symptoms, would it be useful to do genetic testing as a way of confirming, or is unlikely to help with elimination since so many carry it? Is the imaging important in ruling out other diagnosis?

I’m also curious what distinguishes IVDD from a disc injury, because I thought it was like a slipped disc with inflammation similar to humans. Couldn’t a dog still injure a disc and have similar consequences without being a carrier of IVDD?
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
So with IVDD specifically, a dog can be tested for the marker but the majority of Havanese will test positive and not necessarily present symptoms? I remember someone mentioning that formal diagnosis of IVDD requires very expensive imaging. If a dog began to have IVDD symptoms, would it be useful to do genetic testing as a way of confirming, or is unlikely to help with elimination since so many carry it? Is the imaging important in ruling out other diagnosis?

I’m also curious what distinguishes IVDD from a disc injury, because I thought it was like a slipped disc with inflammation similar to humans. Couldn’t a dog still injure a disc and have similar consequences without being a carrier of IVDD?
No, the gene that almost all Havanese have is the other one. The short leg gene. And tes, that is the problem. It is entirely possible for a dog without the gene to have back problems, and for a dog with the gene to never have back problems. That is why my friend who is the vet and PhD geneticist urges caution when making any breeding decisions based on the presence of these genes in the absence of clinical disease.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EvaE1izabeth

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,148 Posts
I have heard that now 23% of havi's get IVDD. Can this possibly be true? I mean, I've been a doxie mom for many years prior to Sophie and I know doxies are #1 they claim 25% get it but from my experience, all the showing I did with my two doxies, field trials, breed ring, obedience, schutzhund, nose work, earth dog, tracking, etc (is your mind still back on "Schutzhund?" 😄 ) it really seems to me it's well above 24% for doxies. Both my poor girls got it even though I am super careful about jumping, twisting, keeping weigh low (Sophie gets to use the ramp up the back steps that have been there for decades for my doxies), fit paws to strengthen muscles around the vertebra, etc etc. I know so many doxies with it. But even though I'm not around as many havi's since we were forced to stop showing :( I still know quite a few owners from boards here and facebook and I've seen a handful of cases but I wouldn't say tons. Does anyone know current percentage for sure?
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
I have heard that now 23% of havi's get IVDD. Can this possibly be true? I mean, I've been a doxie mom for many years prior to Sophie and I know doxies are #1 they claim 25% get it but from my experience, all the showing I did with my two doxies, field trials, breed ring, obedience, schutzhund, nose work, earth dog, tracking, etc (is your mind still back on "Schutzhund?" 😄 ) it really seems to me it's well above 24% for doxies. Both my poor girls got it even though I am super careful about jumping, twisting, keeping weigh low (Sophie gets to use the ramp up the back steps that have been there for decades for my doxies), fit paws to strengthen muscles around the vertebra, etc etc. I know so many doxies with it. But even though I'm not around as many havi's since we were forced to stop showing :( I still know quite a few owners from boards here and facebook and I've seen a handful of cases but I wouldn't say tons. Does anyone know current percentage for sure?

Where did you hear that? I have not heard that number. I now an awful lot of Havanese owners, and personally, the ONLY dogs I know of who have it are the two here on the forum, MPM's girl, who is half Havanese, and Walks' Charlie. And a LOT of the ones I know are involved in heavy duty sports, where if it were likely to show up, it would.

NOW... The Havanese I mostly am involved with are those from reputable breeders who breed well constructed Havanese and do proper health testing, including (nowadays) the genetic testing for the gene (CDDY) implicated in IVDD in Havanese. Not all breeders are doing this testing, but many are. My dogs have been tested and are clear. When you add in all the "puppy mill", "commercial breeder" and "BYB" Havanese out there, I am sure you have MANY that are not as careful bred. But I STILL have a REALLY hard time believing the percentage even APPROACHES 23%.
 

·
Owned by a Havallon
Joined
·
3,342 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I sometimes wonder if Mia was diagnosed correctly. You would think in the seven years since her supposed IVDD episode there would be at least an inkling of a flare up. They make it sound like it is super likely that episodes recur. Perhaps she just tweaked something. She never had an MRI. I am wondering if other dogs with a back problem could be misdiagnosed making the numbers seem worse.

I know there have been a few other reports of IVDD on the forum. Here is one thread in a dog named Wheaty had IVDD and another person replied in this thread that her dog also had IVDD. There was one other person and her dog had it seriously in three discs. I replied to her post a couple times asking about her dog but never got a reply. I guess since Mia supposedly has it I am very attuned to anybody talking about it. However, this is still only a handful of dogs.


i wonder too if as dogs get older perhaps they can get a disc issue just due to getting older.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,148 Posts
Where did you hear that? I have not heard that number. I now an awful lot of Havanese owners, and personally, the ONLY dogs I know of who have it are the two here on the forum, MPM's girl, who is half Havanese, and Walks' Charlie. And a LOT of the ones I know are involved in heavy duty sports, where if it were likely to show up, it would.

NOW... The Havanese I mostly am involved with are those from reputable breeders who breed well constructed Havanese and do proper health testing, including (nowadays) the genetic testing for the gene (CDDY) implicated in IVDD in Havanese. Not all breeders are doing this testing, but many are. My dogs have been tested and are clear. When you add in all the "puppy mill", "commercial breeder" and "BYB" Havanese out there, I am sure you have MANY that are not as careful bred. But I STILL have a REALLY hard time believing the percentage even APPROACHES 23%.
That's my feeling exactly I knew about everything there was to know about IVDD when my two doxies had it but that was a while now so thought ask here. I heard it from a friend with a havi who has been diagnosed with it her vet told her that statistic, but the advice her vet gave her to treat her girl made me sense at all to me for IVDD. Like the vet has her let her painful dog run around as usual and has her give her injectible pain killer when she gets too sore. :oops: That's like the worst thing you should do, make the dog feel better then she will run around more and cause further injury. And she should not be painful for that long. She needs to be strictly crate rested (strictly!) for 2 to 6 weeks only out to potty and on a leash. This disease is the only reason I didn't get another longhaired dachsie it's awful. (So I get to learn about IBD instead! ) Also vet told her she has the anatomy for it. It's largely a genetic condition although body type can play a role. Not an anatomy thing seen on xrays. Horse head spaces filled with disc material you can see yes, but it all looks normal if no disc material is in spaces anywhere at the time.
I have suggested she take her dog to a neurologist and I think she's considering it. I included these pics of my Jessie who at age 4 had her first bout of it. Back then they would prophylactically fenestrate all the discs (and they reach the neck ones from throat thus the incision there).Jessie looked awful here but she was in pain when she went in, when she came out after surgery she trotted down the hall up to me wagging her tail happy as a clam. I was afraid to pick her up the vet picked her up quickly, swung her (gently) right and left and said SHE. IS. NOT. FRAGILE. LIKE. AN. EGG!!! :LOL: I'm all like...I'll just take her sunny side up please, not scrambled. She did have a few more episodes in her life but not nearly as bad, but I stopped showing her just in case which really sucked because she was on fire on the obedience ring, #1 in hound group in US and 44 OTCH pts all breed HITs and she LOVED every minute of it. (why is it I can never give my dogs the great life i'm able to, they all get disease and stuff!!!) They don't typically do this procedure anymore though.

Dog Liver Fawn Dog breed Carnivore

Horse Head Eye Human body Sorrel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,148 Posts
I sometimes wonder if Mia was diagnosed correctly. You would think in the seven years since her supposed IVDD episode there would be at least an inkling of a flare up. They make it sound like it is super likely that episodes recur. Perhaps she just tweaked something. She never had an MRI. I am wondering if other dogs with a back problem could be misdiagnosed making the numbers seem worse.

I know there have been a few other reports of IVDD on the forum. Here is one thread in a dog named Wheaty had IVDD and another person replied in this thread that her dog also had IVDD. There was one other person and her dog had it seriously in three discs. I replied to her post a couple times asking about her dog but never got a reply. I guess since Mia supposedly has it I am very attuned to anybody talking about it. However, this is still only a handful of dogs.


i wonder too if as dogs get older perhaps they can get a disc issue just due to getting older.
Did Mia have an XRay? That would have shown if there was disc material in the spinal canal. My Hallie had only one big bout of IVDD in her life, age 7 never had it happen again so it still could have been IVDD. It's nice they have this test now, they didn't when I had my girls.

Often when you go to a neurologist, the waiting room will be full of doxies! Same with SARDS when I flew my Hallie to Iowa State U to the SARDS reseracher when she went blind, there were 5 doxies there all middle aged females, spayed with allergies. Which is the most common to get that awful thing. And we discovered while sitting there, all five of the dogs names rhymed. My Hallie, then Allie, Sally, Tally and Callie. So pay attention kids! Do NOT name your doxies girls anything that ends with Allie!
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
31,476 Posts
I sometimes wonder if Mia was diagnosed correctly. You would think in the seven years since her supposed IVDD episode there would be at least an inkling of a flare up. They make it sound like it is super likely that episodes recur. Perhaps she just tweaked something. She never had an MRI. I am wondering if other dogs with a back problem could be misdiagnosed making the numbers seem worse.

I know there have been a few other reports of IVDD on the forum. Here is one thread in a dog named Wheaty had IVDD and another person replied in this thread that her dog also had IVDD. There was one other person and her dog had it seriously in three discs. I replied to her post a couple times asking about her dog but never got a reply. I guess since Mia supposedly has it I am very attuned to anybody talking about it. However, this is still only a handful of dogs.


i wonder too if as dogs get older perhaps they can get a disc issue just due to getting older.
And that post was from 7 years ago, when there were still more of the longer, lower, "CD" type Havanese around. I don't KNOW that that dog was one of those, but I am SURE that that build would predispose a dog to back problems, just because of their long, heavy, low-slung build.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top