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Kimberly
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10,275 Posts
First of all, quit looking at the puppies! :D Puppies make us all suckers indeed.

Can you find health testing records on other family members of the sire? I don't know anything about degenerative joint disease of the elbow, but it definitely sends up a yellow flag. The bitch was bred awfully young if she was only 16 months old.

Were either of the parents shown to their championships? What do you know about their temperaments?

Why did the two pups pass away? Do you have information on that?
 

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Kimberly
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10,275 Posts
I viewed a couple of different sites but this one seemed to be the most extensive information-wise of the three I was able to read in the last few minutes.

Degenerative Joint Disease
(Source: http://www.aplus-flint-river-ranch.com/define-osteoarthritis.php)

Emphasis mine.
What are osteoarthritis and degenerative joint disease in pets?

Osteaoarthritis (osteo - bone, arthritis - joint inflammation and pain) and Degenerative Joint Disease are conditions resulting from wear and tear that causes inflammation of the joints, leading to swelling, pain and stiffness. Degenerative Joint Disease can result from congenital (hereditary) problems such as elbow or hip dysplasia, while osteoarthritis typically arises from trauma or injury, or simply from the normal aging process. These conditions can affect any dog at any age but are most common in older large-breed dogs. Excessive body weight (obesity) can also greatly exacerbate the issue.

...

Cartilage functions as a buffer between the bones in a joint, and when cartilage breaks down, it reduces the efficiency of the joint's functions. This is generally considered mild arthritis and can be uncomfortable but not debilitating for pets. Severe arthritis, which can progress to bone-on-bone contact if the cartilage damage is extensive, can be extremely painful and possibly crippling.

Symptoms of mild osteoarthritis include stiffness in moving joints (hips, knees, elbows, and shoulders), favoring a limb, difficulty in rising, a hesitancy to jump, decreased activity level, and general lethargy.

Unfortunately, once osteoarthritis begins, it can continue in a "vicious circle" and become more and more severe. The pain in the joints causes the dog to exercise less and use a decreased range of motion. As a result, the muscles surrounding the affected joints lose strength and the joint therefore has less support from the surrounding tissue. The cycle continues with more pain, more muscle loss, more cartilage and joint damage, and so on.

Once the conditions begin they cannot be completely cured, but treatments and therapies are available to help maintain the health of the joints as much as possible, preventing further damage and relieving pain. Treatment options include chondroprotectants (chondro - cartilage), which are medications or supplements that work to maintain cartilage health.
 

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Janet Hicks
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276 Posts
I know I'm not answering your question because I have one of my own...WHY on earth would someone use a dog with degenerative joint disease to sire a litter??? We have so many healthy dogs to chose from! I get on my high-horse when I hear things like this. Grrrrrrr I have worked as a vet tech for several years and have assisted in surgery for dogs with various joint diseases. These type of deformities can be very painful for the dog and surgery runs in the $4-5K range.

So I will answer the question with another question. Can you find a breeder that has dogs that have passed their health testing to purchase a puppy from?

All pups are cute, not all cute pups are from health parents. And since there isn't complete health testing done on both parents, I wouldn't touch the litter. JMHO
 

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Kimberly
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10,275 Posts
Agreed. After I started reading about DJD, I am also wondering why that sire was used and hasn't been neutered. Seems like a very unnecessary risk.
 

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Janet Hicks
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276 Posts
The testing for elbows was done in April but the report date wasn't until June, so it's quite possible the breeder didn't know until after the dam was already pregnant.

Janet, I appreciate your input and also a range for what treatment for this problem would cost.
I am glad you didn't mention names. That type of thing should not be posted on a public forum, especially since you mentioned that the litter was born before the results came in. I would be devastated. I hope all the pups are ok.
 

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Roscoe and Stella's Mom
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1,203 Posts
The testing for elbows was done in April but the report date wasn't until June, so it's quite possible the breeder didn't know until after the dam was already pregnant.

Janet, I appreciate your input and also a range for what treatment for this problem would cost.
I don't understand why the breeder wouldn't have waited until AFTER receiving the results to breed...doesn't not waiting totally defeat the purpose of the testing?
 

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Kimberly
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10,275 Posts
I don't understand why the breeder wouldn't have waited until AFTER receiving the results to breed...doesn't not waiting totally defeat the purpose of the testing?
Exactly, Natalie.

And I agree with Janet that I am glad you have not named names.

If neither parent has their championship, does that mean neither has been shown? If so, I suspect you could get a pretty sweet deal on a cheap puppy that may have some hereditary issues down the road. Afterall, the majority of a good breeder's expense is in the showing of the parents and the health testing and neither are complete.
 

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Registered
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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for everyone's input. I'm moving on from this breeder and will continue looking. I know when the right situation presents itself, I won't feel that sense of doubt. :)
 

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Mom to Ricky and Sammy
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10,319 Posts
It all sounds like great advice and mamajama, I'm glad you are moving on. Please keep us posted and Welcome to the forum!! :)
 

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Metrowest, MA
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26,647 Posts
Thanks for everyone's input. I'm moving on from this breeder and will continue looking. I know when the right situation presents itself, I won't feel that sense of doubt. :)
Good for you! You will be happier in the end. I looked for a puppy (and more importantly, the right breeder) for many months. But it was all worth it when I found a great breeder who had the "perfect for me" puppy! It seems amazing to me that we've had him for a year now.

In the mean time, ask lots of question, get to know everyone here, and realize that the forum is not ALWAYS in the state of turmoil you've dropped into at this point in time. I'm hoping that the new owners will prove temselves, we will all be able to breathe a sigh of relief, and go back to doing what we like most... Talking about Havanese!!!
 

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Registered
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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for the welcome, Marj! And Karen, you're right about things being a little unsettled around here right now. I'm hopeful things go well with the new owners too - I want this forum around when I get my puppy!! I've learned so much already and I don't even have the dog yet! :)
 
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