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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wanted to introduce Lola & Mico.
Lola is 2 and mico is one years old.I’ve always had mastiffs but my lifestyle isn’t as active as before. I did a ton of research and so happy with these amazing little dogs! Mico was about 7 mo in first few and the last is recent. Sorry about all the photos-I feel like one of those crazy proud grandparents
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Liver Ear
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Companion dog Snout
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Liver Ear
Plant Dog Carnivore Fence Liver
Head Dog Liver Collar Dog breed
Eye Liver Dog breed Snout Companion dog
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Ear Water dog
 

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Metrowest, MA
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Welcome!
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Welcome! Lola and Mico are cuties!
Thanks. I love the color of your puppy.he’s beautiful!
The color charts are still a bit difficult to me
What color is he? Do u have a baby pic of his puppy color? I’m assuming it changed. It’s pretty amazing to me still about all of the graying, silvering, getting lighter or coming out w new colors
My daughter (she’s 40) is looking at puppies for several weeks and had seen a brown pup but was told it would probably be golden sable
Maybe yours is more cream??? No idea
 

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Thanks. I love the color of your puppy.he’s beautiful!
The color charts are still a bit difficult to me
What color is he? Do u have a baby pic of his puppy color? I’m assuming it changed. It’s pretty amazing to me still about all of the graying, silvering, getting lighter or coming out w new colors
My daughter (she’s 40) is looking at puppies for several weeks and had seen a brown pup but was told it would probably be golden sable
Maybe yours is more cream??? No idea
Leo’s color is gold. He has slightly lightened over the years.

Dog Carnivore Dog breed Companion dog Working animal
 

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Thanks. I love the color of your puppy.he’s beautiful!
The color charts are still a bit difficult to me
What color is he? Do u have a baby pic of his puppy color? I’m assuming it changed. It’s pretty amazing to me still about all of the graying, silvering, getting lighter or coming out w new colors
My daughter (she’s 40) is looking at puppies for several weeks and had seen a brown pup but was told it would probably be golden sable
Maybe yours is more cream??? No idea
Unfortunately, the "charts" are pretty useless, because the people who made them did them before we had DNA testing for colors, and they were pretty much guessing and naming colors. For instance the two colors that you name above, gold sable and cream are two completely different genes. "cream" is a tone of red, the "ee" gene. (like Golden Retrievers and Yellow Labradors). There is an "Intensity" gene that modifies how dark or light "red" and ee dog is going to be as an adult, though I suspect we may learn there is more to it than that over time. Many ee puppies are born darker red and lighten, while ee puppies who are going to be darker red as adults are often pale colored as puppies! Here is Ducky as a new born and now:

Tartan Dog breed Textile Felidae Carnivore

Plant Dog Flower Carnivore Grass


Gold sable is a tone of sable, and those colors (red sable, gold sable, silver sable) right now, are pretty much in the eye of the beholder. We know the genetics for SABLE. This is testable. We do not know the genetics for whatever modifiers make the dog lighten (or not) to its final. adult color. (and not all sables lighten a lot either!
You've seen photos of sables who have lightened a lot, but here is one who hasn't lightened much at all. She is almost the same base color she was as a puppy, though she did have more black tipping on her fur as a puppy. She also carries the masking gene.
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Liver Companion dog

(she is a red sable)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Unfortunately, the "charts" are pretty useless, because the people who made them did them before we had DNA testing for colors, and they were pretty much guessing and naming colors. For instance the two colors that you name above, gold sable and cream are two completely different genes. "cream" is a tone of red, the "ee" gene. (like Golden Retrievers and Yellow Labradors). There is an "Intensity" gene that modifies how dark or light "red" and ee dog is going to be as an adult, though I suspect we may learn there is more to it than that over time. Many ee puppies are born darker red and lighten, while ee puppies who are going to be darker red as adults are often pale colored as puppies! Here is Ducky as a new born and now:

View attachment 178822
View attachment 178823

Gold sable is a tone of sable, and those colors (red sable, gold sable, silver sable) right now, are pretty much in the eye of the beholder. We know the genetics for SABLE. This is testable. We do not know the genetics for whatever modifiers make the dog lighten (or not) to its final. adult color. (and not all sables lighten a lot either!
You've seen photos of sables who have lightened a lot, but here is one who hasn't lightened much at all. She is almost the same base color she was as a puppy, though she did have more black tipping on her fur as a puppy. She also carries the masking gene. View attachment 178824
(she is a red sable)
Thanks so much. I have seen the rainbow something color chart but haven’t really grasped all of the intricacies.
I love ❤ Ducky’s color and confirmation.
Is he the same Ducky I saw doing the off leash heeling when u throw a cookie and he comes back to position without a further command? If so, it was very 😎 cool. Mico heels like a dream and I intend to try that out. Really nice dog and thanks for taking the time explaining the regiments of some of the colors.
What color is Ducky then?
If I had to guess I’d be 50 % correct ok he’s white and…gold?
 

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Thanks so much. I have seen the rainbow something color chart but haven’t really grasped all of the intricacies.
I love ❤ Ducky’s color and confirmation.
Is he the same Ducky I saw doing the off leash heeling when u throw a cookie and he comes back to position without a further command? If so, it was very 😎 cool. Mico heels like a dream and I intend to try that out. Really nice dog and thanks for taking the time explaining the regiments of some of the colors.
What color is Ducky then?
If I had to guess I’d be 50 % correct ok he’s white and…gold?
Yes, the “colors of the rainbow” site is very old, and was based on guess-work rather than genetics. A lot of it is wrong.

Thanks. Yes, the “choose to heel” video is him.

He is an “ee” clear red (and white, parti) he received an “e” gene from each parent. This is a color, like blue eyes, when, just by looking at the dog, you know the genetics. Because the dog HAS to have two of the genes for the color to express. If he had only one “e” gene, the “other“ color would express. For instance, in he had one “e” (red) gene and one “E” (black) gene, he would have been a black and white dog. (Ee)

Oh, and he also has two copies of the “spotting gene” (SpSp), and one copy of Intensity (In). (I love color genetics! :) )
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yes, the “colors of the rainbow” site is very old, and was based on guess-work rather than genetics. A lot of it is wrong.

Thanks. Yes, the “choose to heel” video is him.

He is an “ee” clear red (and white, parti) he received an “e” gene from each parent. This is a color, like blue eyes, when, just by looking at the dog, you know the genetics. Because the dog HAS to have two of the genes for the color to express. If he had only one “e” gene, the “other“ color would express. For instance, in he had one “e” (red) gene and one “E” (black) gene, he would have been a black and white dog. (Ee)

Oh, and he also has two copies of the “spotting gene” (SpSp), and one copy of Intensity (In). (I love color genetics! :) )
I used to be a geneticist and immunologist. like a hundred years ago in dog time. It definitely could be fun to take a look at the newer DNA.

Ducky is amazing. I also saw a video of him when he was a pup and you were walking around working on his head carriage. I really like the way you work and interact w him
Is there a way to quickly get to other videos u have on this site or a training page or blog u have?
I’ve always had English mastiffs and while the training is the same for about 95 percent there are some differences in training the two breeds to me.
i would appreciate any advice like maybe the best book or something
This was SeaMonkey. He was a 240lb fluffy English mastiff and the last dog I had before I found these amazing dogs.
Although I will probably get another mastiff some day I will never not have a Havanese !!
How long have you been handling them? I’d like to get Mico into agility. He knows his obedience and manners and I think we would ❤ Love it
Thanks

Smile Dog Dog breed Carnivore Fawn
 

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Yes, the “colors of the rainbow” site is very old, and was based on guess-work rather than genetics. A lot of it is wrong.

Thanks. Yes, the “choose to heel” video is him.

He is an “ee” clear red (and white, parti) he received an “e” gene from each parent. This is a color, like blue eyes, when, just by looking at the dog, you know the genetics. Because the dog HAS to have two of the genes for the color to express. If he had only one “e” gene, the “other“ color would express. For instance, in he had one “e” (red) gene and one “E” (black) gene, he would have been a black and white dog. (Ee)

Oh, and he also has two copies of the “spotting gene” (SpSp), and one copy of Intensity (In). (I love color genetics! :) )
Is the ‘spotting’ gene belton or something different?
 

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I used to be a geneticist and immunologist. like a hundred years ago in dog time. It definitely could be fun to take a look at the newer DNA.

Ducky is amazing. I also saw a video of him when he was a pup and you were walking around working on his head carriage. I really like the way you work and interact w him
Is there a way to quickly get to other videos u have on this site or a training page or blog u have?
I’ve always had English mastiffs and while the training is the same for about 95 percent there are some differences in training the two breeds to me.
i would appreciate any advice like maybe the best book or something
This was SeaMonkey. He was a 240lb fluffy English mastiff and the last dog I had before I found these amazing dogs.
Although I will probably get another mastiff some day I will never not have a Havanese !!
How long have you been handling them? I’d like to get Mico into agility. He knows his obedience and manners and I think we would ❤ Love it
Thanks

View attachment 178846
Your mastiff is gorgeous! I’ve always loved giant breeds but don’t know that I’ll ever have one so just love on those big smushy faces whenever I see them 😊
 

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The colors of the rainbow site is fun and helped me figure out what kind of markings Sundance has, etc. But I’m kind of glad the genetic portion of it isn’t accurate because it makes me feel better that I can’t remember all of those details! When DS was younger he was out of school for a long illness and worked on a genetics unit at home. I was devastated to find out that most of what I learned about genetic traits in school is not really how it works!
 

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I used to be a geneticist and immunologist. like a hundred years ago in dog time. It definitely could be fun to take a look at the newer DNA.

Ducky is amazing. I also saw a video of him when he was a pup and you were walking around working on his head carriage. I really like the way you work and interact w him
Is there a way to quickly get to other videos u have on this site or a training page or blog u have?
I’ve always had English mastiffs and while the training is the same for about 95 percent there are some differences in training the two breeds to me.
i would appreciate any advice like maybe the best book or something
This was SeaMonkey. He was a 240lb fluffy English mastiff and the last dog I had before I found these amazing dogs.
Although I will probably get another mastiff some day I will never not have a Havanese !!
How long have you been handling them? I’d like to get Mico into agility. He knows his obedience and manners and I think we would ❤ Love it
Thanks

View attachment 178846
I used to be a geneticist and immunologist. like a hundred years ago in dog time. It definitely could be fun to take a look at the newer DNA.

Ducky is amazing. I also saw a video of him when he was a pup and you were walking around working on his head carriage. I really like the way you work and interact w him
Is there a way to quickly get to other videos u have on this site or a training page or blog u have?
I’ve always had English mastiffs and while the training is the same for about 95 percent there are some differences in training the two breeds to me.
i would appreciate any advice like maybe the best book or something
This was SeaMonkey. He was a 240lb fluffy English mastiff and the last dog I had before I found these amazing dogs.
Although I will probably get another mastiff some day I will never not have a Havanese !!
How long have you been handling them? I’d like to get Mico into agility. He knows his obedience and manners and I think we would ❤ Love it
Thanks

View attachment 178846
I have a YouTube cannel, but it is NOT an organized "training" channel or anything... it is simply a place I dump "all the things". From stuff about my vivariums and aquariums, to family stuff, my horse's retirement, you name it! But you are welcome to poke around!: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbECzh2xq4HUJyREDzDfVEQ

Dogs are dogs, no matter what the size. I know these methods work on Bullmastiffs, and they aren't THAT different, temperamentally from English Mastiffs. ;) (they both drool too much for me, but teaching them to heel is (initially) easier on the back!!!)

I've had Havanese for 13+ years now, and they were my down-size training animals after a life-time of training hunters, jumpers and dressage horses due to Rheumatoid Arthritis. Havanese are a lot easier on the joints!!! Kodi, my old guy, was trained through Utility level, titled in Agility, Obedience and Rally and is STILL the highest ranked Havanese in World Cynosport Rally after 6 years, and the only one to ever achieve his ARCHMX in that sport. Unfortunately, a combination of a bad injury, Covid lay-off, and now failing eye sight have caused me to have to retire him, but he is still my "best boy"! This photo as taken when he was about 6, I believe, and is only a small portion of his life-time winnings.

Dog Purple Carnivore Dog breed Magenta


Except for the bottom row, which is Panda's, every ribbon in this room was won by him. And that doesn't really include the flats... Those are just all bunched together in big tassels on that post in front of the ribbon wall. Nobody could ask for a better "Novice A" dog!!! 💕
Building Fashion Interior design Architecture Floor
 

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The colors of the rainbow site is fun and helped me figure out what kind of markings Sundance has, etc. But I’m kind of glad the genetic portion of it isn’t accurate because it makes me feel better that I can’t remember all of those details! When DS was younger he was out of school for a long illness and worked on a genetics unit at home. I was devastated to find out that most of what I learned about genetic traits in school is not really how it works!
This one is MUCH better: Dog Coat Colour Genetics
 
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Is the ‘spotting’ gene belton or something different?
No, the "spotting gene" determines how much white Havanese will have on them. I don't believe ANY Havanese have NO "Sp" gene, which is why even "almost solid" Havanese tend to have a couple of white toes, or a chin or chest spot. The ones with two genes tend to be the loud partis.

Now THIS is a supposition on my part, based on what I know from horse color genetics. But the other piece of how white color is laid down in horses is that it is "switched "on" and "off" by conditions within the womb. That is why you can get horses that are cloned, as is often done with polo ponies, that have markings that are not "identical". They will be in the same general areas of the body, but while one may have a white marking that ends at the pastern, another may have one that goes up to the knee.

I strongly suspect that that is exactly what we saw with the King's identical twin puppies in the spring, who shared a placenta. They HAD to be identical twins, yet one had much more white than the other. But the one with more white, was also much larger than Ruffin at birth. My GUESS is that that puppy got more placental support, which also somehow affected how the white marking gene turned "on" and "off" leaving him with more white than Ruffin has. I thought that seeing these two confirmed twins and being able to watch their development was extremely interesting from the color perspective as well as everything else!

They have not completely untangled the Belton gene yet, and we do not have a DNA test for it yet. We know that it is related to the "roaning" gene, but this gene is not on the same locus in all breeds, so it will take more work to nap it down for Havanese. It will be a good one to nail down, because in its extreme, it IS one that many breeders would rather avoid. (but that is another question... what are the modifiers? a little is fine! LOL!)
 
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