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I just read in my rejection to asking a question I must post twice here. Since I’m close to desperate to learning your thoughts on neutering I’ll add more. Charlie is now 15 weeks old. Today weighed 4.5 kg at the vet. So chubby I guess. I’ll post later about food. For now I’m more concerned about neutering since today they wanted me to book his neuter. I came and started researching and well found this group. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and thoughts for us new havernese parents. 🙏
 

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I just read in my rejection to asking a question I must post twice here. Since I’m close to desperate to learning your thoughts on neutering I’ll add more. Charlie is now 15 weeks old. Today weighed 4.5 kg at the vet. So chubby I guess. I’ll post later about food. For now I’m more concerned about neutering since today they wanted me to book his neuter. I came and started researching and well found this group. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and thoughts for us new havernese parents. 🙏
He is too young to be neutered. Please read this. I wrote a lot more the first time, but didn’t realize that you had not already been properly cleared as a new member, so it all got deleted.

But this will give you all the info you need to make a good decision. Do not allow a vet to push you into juvenile desexing!


You don’t need to buy the book if you don’t want, there is a free “flip book” you can read right on the site.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
He is too young to be neutered. Please read this. I wrote a lot more the first time, but didn’t realize that you had not already been properly cleared as a new member, so it all got deleted.

But this will give you all the info you need to make a good decision. Do not allow a vet to push you into juvenile desexing!


You don’t need to buy the book if you don’t want, there is a free “flip book” you can read right on the site.
Thank you so much. Yes I’m reading so much about “side effects” that I’m leaning to not doing it at all. I’m thinking maybe when he is one to re-evaluate the findings of clinical trials going on. The acl etc seem big problems that are occurring if done too young. Thanks for your time in responding to my questions. 🙏
 

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Thank you so much. Yes I’m reading so much about “side effects” that I’m leaning to not doing it at all. I’m thinking maybe when he is one to re-evaluate the findings of clinical trials going on. The acl etc seem big problems that are occurring if done too young. Thanks for your time in responding to my questions. 🙏
In Europe most dogs are not desexed unless there is a medical necessity. In dome countries it is illegal. It is only in the US that we take the easy way out and use desexing rather than training to solve problems like marking and humping.
 

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I'm glad Karen answered, she knows a lot more than me, but here is my one cent.

I would want to know when they want you to schedule it for. Do they want you to neuter him now (which, like Karen says, is crazy!) or do they want you to get the surgery scheduled because they're booked up in advance? When do they recommend you do it? Is there any reason for you to neuter him around 6 months? In Los Angeles, dog daycares will not take unaltered puppies after they complete 6 months. Is that the case in your location?

I'm a very new mom with a 7-month-old girl. In my first visit to the vet, when Ursa was 9 weeks old, the dr mentioned surgery around 6 months. The vet I actually like for her surgery doesn't like to spay dogs younger than one year old (because of the growth plates).
If I could be a super responsible caretaker and make sure my dog would never contribute to unplanned litters, I would not spay her. [Important amend here: I also got her under the agreement she would be spayed, so I wouldn't really have a choice.]
But I will eventually need to take her to daycare on occasion as I don't have a large support system in my city. So I'm investigating OSS, and also making sure I let her plates close before surgery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In Europe most dogs are not desexed unless there is a medical necessity. In dome countries it is illegal. It is only in the US that we take the easy way out and use desexing rather than training to solve problems like marking and humping.
Interesting. Thanks for that. I clearly need to do much more homework.
 

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I'm glad Karen answered, she knows a lot more than me, but here is my one cent.

I would want to know when they want you to schedule it for. Do they want you to neuter him now (which, like Karen says, is crazy!) or do they want you to get the surgery scheduled because they're booked up in advance? When do they recommend you do it? Is there any reason for you to neuter him around 6 months? In Los Angeles, dog daycares will not take unaltered puppies after they complete 6 months. Is that the case in your location?

I'm a very new mom with a 7-month-old girl. In my first visit to the vet, when Ursa was 9 weeks old, the dr mentioned surgery around 6 months. The vet I actually like for her surgery doesn't like to spay dogs younger than one year old (because of the growth plates).
If I could be a super responsible caretaker and make sure my dog would never contribute to unplanned litters, I would not spay her. But I will eventually need to take her to daycare on occasion as I don't have a large support system in my city. So I'm investigating OSS, and also making sure I let her plates close before surgery.
I’m thinking the same. Wait until after he is one year and see how he is. If no “ reasons” then I won’t. I have read there is no huge difference in the surgery if done closer to even two. Thanks for your input.
 

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Congratulations Mom of Charlie, you are now an approved member. You have full posting privileges on any forum on this site. There is lots of good information on this site with lots of very knowledgeable members. Have fun!
 

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I'm glad Karen answered, she knows a lot more than me, but here is my one cent.

I would want to know when they want you to schedule it for. Do they want you to neuter him now (which, like Karen says, is crazy!) or do they want you to get the surgery scheduled because they're booked up in advance? When do they recommend you do it? Is there any reason for you to neuter him around 6 months? In Los Angeles, dog daycares will not take unaltered puppies after they complete 6 months. Is that the case in your location?

I'm a very new mom with a 7-month-old girl. In my first visit to the vet, when Ursa was 9 weeks old, the dr mentioned surgery around 6 months. The vet I actually like for her surgery doesn't like to spay dogs younger than one year old (because of the growth plates).
If I could be a super responsible caretaker and make sure my dog would never contribute to unplanned litters, I would not spay her. But I will eventually need to take her to daycare on occasion as I don't have a large support system in my city. So I'm investigating OSS, and also making sure I let her plates close before surgery.
Good point on the day care. And an important one there ARE situations where a family’s life style makes it important for a puppy to be desexed earlier because of the need for daycare, and I would NEVER want someone to feel bad about that decision.

I would be VERY careful about the idea of an ovary sparing spay. It sounds intriguing on the surface, but to me, when I’ve dug in more, it sounds like the worst of all worlds. While it is true, that the dog can’t produce puppies, she can STILL get “stump pyometra” a life threatening infection Of the uterus, or in the case of an OSS, what is left of the reproductive tract. She will STILL go into heat regularly, attracting males JUST as much, and with all the annoying behavioral changes that go along with it, INCLUDING the possibility of false pregnancies. You STILL can’t take her to dog competitions, many dog training facilities and PROBABLY most day cares, when she is in heat, because although she can’t get pregnant, she will STILL cause dog fights among the males.

Worst of all, it is VITALLY important that you do NOT let a girl who has had an OSS get tied by a male, because he could rupture her now-shortened vagina wall, causing life-threatening internal damage to her. And don’t think that only intact males will tie… my Kodi has surprised me by tying with BOTH of my girls when they were in heat, and he was neutered at 7 months, back when we didn’t know not to neuter so early! So she is not even safe around neutered males when she is in heat. That means isolation for 6 weeks a year.

Finally, if you get fed up with the whole OOS situation and want to go back and remove those offending ovaries, they are TINY, and now no longer neatly attached to the uterus, which has been removed. It is difficult and complicated for a vet to find and f
remove them later should you decide that you want to finish the spay.

After looking into it in depth, and talking to several people who did it (and wished they hadn’t) I decided there was NO advantage to an OOS. I would simply keep my girls intact until I decided it was time to spay them completely. Panda is 6 now, and will be spayed in Dec. The ONLY reason she is being spayed now is because I have kept her intact son, and do not plan to neuter him, and I do NOT want to manage a stud puppy and his mom in heat in the same household!

Oh, and back to having to be a “super responsible owner” to prevent pregnancy… well, if you must use day care, or other forms of care where dogs are houses communally, then yes, you really have no choice. You really must desex your dog. But I just don’t see, with a toy breed dog, a situation where a reasonably responsible owner of an expensive dog is not going to have enough of an eye on them to be able to keep them away from intact males for 3 weeks twice a year. It REALLY is not that hard!
 
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I agree that there are reasons to delay neutering and I know that there are responsible people out there who can make sure that their dogs don't contribute to unwanted litters, but I DO believe that you should seriously consider neutering after he's done growing.
 

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@krandall Thank you for sharing your knowledge on OSS.
As I started reading your reply to my post, I was formulating follow-up questions but you managed to answer them a few lines down.
Thanks for taking the time.
 

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I agree that there are reasons to delay neutering and I know that there are responsible people out there who can make sure that their dogs don't contribute to unwanted litters, but I DO believe that you should seriously consider neutering after he's done growing.
I think it is a decision that each family needs to make for themselves. There is no doubt that it is more of a pain in the neck to have intact animals in your life long term, and many people don't want that. I think that everyone needs to educate themselves on the pros and cons and make the best decision for themselves and their dogs, WITHOUT feeling pressured either by their vet OR "societal norms". And then not feel guilty about their decision. This ends up being almost as weighty a decision as where to send your kid to preschool! LOL!
 
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...Oh, and back to having to be a “super responsible owner” to prevent pregnancy… well, if you must use day care, or other forms of care where dogs are houses communally, then yes, you really have no choice. You really must desex your dog. But I just don’t see, with a toy breed dog, a situation where a reasonably responsible owner of an expensive dog is not going to have enough of an eye on them to be able to keep them away from intact males for 3 weeks twice a year. It REALLY is not that hard!
True - but for male dogs you have to keep them away from females which is harder - because then you have to rely on other owners (of all size breeds) to be aware of their dogs :)
 

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True - but for male dogs you have to keep them away from females which is harder - because then you have to rely on other owners (of all size breeds) to be aware of their dogs :)

I don't know... My dogs are never out of my control... Already Ducky is old enough that I don't take chances. I don't THINK he can get anyone pregnant yet, but if I go to the home of anyone with an intact female, he is on leash and wearing a belly band. If I can't have him RIGHT beside me that way, he is in a crate.

I guess I come form a world where I regularly rode stallions in sports and they were taught to mind their manners. No one knew they WERE stallions because they were so well behaved. (and mares are in heat monthly for about 8 months of the year) I travel in circles where few of the male dogs are neutered, and they all behave themselves. But they aren't bebopping around the neighborhood on their own, either.
 

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I don't know... My dogs are never out of my control... Already Ducky is old enough that I don't take chances. I don't THINK he can get anyone pregnant yet, but if I go to the home of anyone with an intact female, he is on leash and wearing a belly band. If I can't have him RIGHT beside me that way, he is in a crate.

I guess I come form a world where I regularly rode stallions in sports and they were taught to mind their manners. No one knew they WERE stallions because they were so well behaved. (and mares are in heat monthly for about 8 months of the year) I travel in circles where few of the male dogs are neutered, and they all behave themselves. But they aren't bebopping around the neighborhood on their own, either.
I totally get it and in the world you are in it totally makes sense, I just don't think that most people in the pet dog world are paying that much attention or are willing to put that much effort into making sure that there are no accidental pregnancies. So anyone who is thinking about not spaying/ neutering has to really understand these things and decide if they want to have to monitor everything that carefully which means, if they have a boy, taking the care that you do or monitoring any female dogs that they might be around every time. It's certainly doable, but you have to be ready to do that work and maintain that level of vigilance all the time.

They also have to figure out if their lifestyle and what they want to do will work with an intact dog. As mentioned above, will they ever be at daycare, will you be going to a dog park regularly, will you be leaving them with a baby sitter and do you trust the sitter to be as careful as you are, etc.
 

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I totally get it and in the world you are in it totally makes sense, I just don't think that most people in the pet dog world are paying that much attention or are willing to put that much effort into making sure that there are no accidental pregnancies. So anyone who is thinking about not spaying/ neutering has to really understand these things and decide if they want to have to monitor everything that carefully which means, if they have a boy, taking the care that you do or monitoring any female dogs that they might be around every time. It's certainly doable, but you have to be ready to do that work and maintain that level of vigilance all the time.

They also have to figure out if their lifestyle and what they want to do will work with an intact dog. As mentioned above, will they ever be at daycare, will you be going to a dog park regularly, will you be leaving them with a baby sitter and do you trust the sitter to be as careful as you are, etc.
Absolutely! And that’s why there is no right or wrong answer for everyone… about doing it at all, OR about WHEN to do it! While I am a strong advocate for waiting for a dog to fully mature before spay/neuter, a gal who is a teacher, and bought one of the King’s dogs approached me for advice. She was agonizing over the decision, because she had read, and truly believed that waiting was better for the dog. But she is single, HAD to work, which meant her dog HAD to go to daycare. The daycare policy required all dogs to be spayed or neutered at 6 months.

She was actually wondering whether she should have gotten the dog at all!!! I pointed out to her that although stistics show a SLIGHT increase in certain health problems with early spay, it is only very slight. And you need to look at the entire picture. MILLIONS of dogs have been soayed at 6 months and have gone on to live long, healthy lives. NO ONE would want her not to enjoy life with her dog because she couldn’t wait until a year to get her spayed!!! She went ahead and had it done, and she and her pup have a wonderful life together. NO ONE should deprive themselves of the company of a dog over this decision!!!

But you are also absolutely right that it IS an added responsibility, and if the WHOLE FAMILY is not up to dealing with it (and I can see that if I had young children who would be walking my intact dog, I might not want to put them in that position!) it is probably better to be careful until they are mature, (let’s face it, you should be watching them like a hawk for SO many reason through puppyhood anyway!) and then get them spayed/neutered. It’s one less thing to worry about.
 
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In Los Angeles, dog daycares will not take unaltered puppies after they complete 6 months. Is that the case in your location?
This was my reason for neutering before 1yr, and I did for several reasons mostly related to boarding, pet sitters, and daycare, and our schedule at the time. Later I learned that it’s not such a hard and fast rule. Many daycare centers state their policy is 6 months but will accept a letter from the vet delaying spay or neuter until 1 year without even blinking. I haven’t heard much about after 1 year because most people I know are pet owners and do it around that time, but I know people are waiting even longer. I’m only familiar with a handful of veterinary offices but of the 5 I can think of, only 1 or 2 still push for early neuter and one of those is the vet out of the big box pet supply store. Mine initially recommended waiting longer but there were other factors involved. Anyway, my point is that the recommendation to wait is becoming mainstream and it’s worth it to ask the daycare.

I’ve noticed it’s more common for private sitters to require it in listings for services, but I skip those even though Sundance is neutered. There might be varied reasons, but it suggests to me they might be unable to supervise dogs together. To me that defeats the purpose of using a private sitter. There are plenty of private sitters who accept unaltered dogs and in my area it can be about the same cost, often less.
 

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This was my reason for neutering before 1yr, and I did for several reasons mostly related to boarding, pet sitters, and daycare, and our schedule at the time. Later I learned that it’s not such a hard and fast rule. Many daycare centers state their policy is 6 months but will accept a letter from the vet delaying spay or neuter until 1 year without even blinking. I haven’t heard much about after 1 year because most people I know are pet owners and do it around that time, but I know people are waiting even longer. I’m only familiar with a handful of veterinary offices but of the 5 I can think of, only 1 or 2 still push for early neuter and one of those is the vet out of the big box pet supply store. Mine initially recommended waiting longer but there were other factors involved. Anyway, my point is that the recommendation to wait is becoming mainstream and it’s worth it to ask the daycare.

I’ve noticed it’s more common for private sitters to require it in listings for services, but I skip those even though Sundance is neutered. There might be varied reasons, but it suggests to me they might be unable to supervise dogs together. To me that defeats the purpose of using a private sitter. There are plenty of private sitters who accept unaltered dogs and in my area it can be about the same cost, often less.
Wow!!! THAT is really good information, and something I had no idea of. (since I don't use daycare or boarding at all) Thanks for that!!!
 
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