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Discussion Starter #1
We just got our new puppy, he is so cute :). But he was sick, has really loose stools, with blood, and was listless and wouldn't eat. The breeder must have seen the stools, as the first bm he had was bloody! I took him to our vet as soon as we got home. He said he had colitis and wouldn't rule out Toxidia is treating him for that. Also said that he is a hypoglycemic pup, so he gave us some high energy stuff for him to eat, and that is helping a lot, along with the med for toxidia and some stuff for his bowel movements. He wasn't too keen on the shots he was given either, said too often the breeders get them thru the mail, and they are left on the loading docks and not refridgerated properly, which reduces the effectivness, so we are going to do some boosters. Needless to say, I am not happy with the breeders. I did not get to see where they kept the pups, I did not get any papers saying that he was checked for health issues (except for a stool sample), I didn't get the CERF numbers for the parents. I suppose I could get my money back, but I fell in love with him, and will keep him. I just hope he doesn't have any other medical problems. I don't know if they did any BAER testing. They were supposed to have all that, but the guy we talked to on the phone was gone, only his wife was home, and we drove from Michigan to Florida to get the pup, so we weren't going to turn around and go home without him. He's doing better, but I thought we were going to lose him on the way home. I'm suspicious that we didn't get to see where the pups were kept, doesn't that sound funny to you guys?
 

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I am so sorry for you. He is adorable. And I think with good care, we hope he will turn around. I had similiar experience with our breeder, no papers, except worming and no pedigree. Jasper had loose stool as a puppy and low energy and he would vomit bile if he didn't eat a meal. He still a finicky eater-- but he is healthy and hearty. Good Luck. and send progress reports.
 

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Casper and Missy
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I feel so bad for you, I am so sorry your new puppy is not well. That must be very disappointing to get home with a sick puppy. I am gald he is doing better. He is really cute.

I just got a new puppy and it is hard. I was a nervous wreck.

It does seem strange to me that if you drove all that way you did not get to see where the puppies were kept.

Please let us know, how he is doing.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks. When these little guys are just under 2 pounds, it sure doesn't take very much if they don't eat. It is scary. But he seems to be perking up, and we have a great vet where I live who I can call day or night.

Skiver already has such a neat personality, I can't wait until his is 100% and we can really play!
 

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So sorry to hear about you experience with the new puppy. Glad he is doing better. So far, we lucked out with our two puppies. We got hem from breeders, but they weren't one of the more publicized breeders you see advertised. However, we did get to see at least one of the parents and where they were kept. You just never know!
 

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Oh my, that poor baby!! I know what you mean when you say you wouldn't go back for your $ as you already fell in love. I know that getting a pup is kinda like having a kid, you never know what they will "catch" later on, but the first day out - something is really wrong with that. My breeder for my three was also, not very advertised. She provided me (online) with the CERFs for the parents. I got to meet the parents, see where they were housed and where all the pups were kept. This was all on the day I picked mine up, as I never met them till they were 8 weeks. I am glad he is doing better. Mine is now 10 weeks old, and the most active thing I have ever seen!!!! Lots of love and a good vet will, I am sure, get him back to where he needs to be!!
 

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Good luck with your new puppy. He is so adorable and hopefully with LOL he will be better soon. It does sound fishing. Especially without CERF etc. My breeder lets you view them online and then I verified them through CERF to make sure they were not false. Well, you had a bad experience but at least with you giving him LOL he should be all right. Who knows what would happen if you gave him back.

Best wishes. Keep us posted.
 

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Mom to Princess & Jewels
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I would send the breeder's the bill from the vet, and let them pay it.

Sorry he's sick, I hope he gets better soon.
 

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Bugsy's Mom
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I am so sorry to hear about the trouble you've had with your new puppy and am glad to hear that he is getting better.
 

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Jolynn, How is he doing??? I agree, you should send the vet bill to the breeder with a note or letter from the vet stating that this is something that they had to have known about before releasing him to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Skiver is doing much better. His stools are more formed and there is no more red blood, so his little butt feels better :). He is much more lively, so that energy food and the meds are doing the trick. What a difference!

Wow, this breed sure is a cute one! Such a little sweetie, and so playful. He really loves it when he makes me laugh, just gives me kisses like crazy. I can see why so many people here have more than one Havanese.

Thanks for all the well wishes. I do believe I will send the vet bill to the breeder. We keep trying to call them, but it's funny, it keeps going to the answering machine. Must have caller ID.:rolleyes:
 

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Glad he is doing better. Havanese Puppies are just the hardest to resist. They are just as loving as they get older too!!
 

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Sick pup

I cannot tell you how many things are wrong with this. As a breeder this sounds like a nightmare to me. This is not the way things should go.
When you couldn't see where the pups were raised I would have run the other direction. No CERF's? Did you verify ANY health testing. CERF is the the tip - the parents should have CERF, BAER, OFA hips and patellas. Mine all have those 4 plus Elbows, LCP, Thyroid, Liver Function. I give all owners the verification stuff before they ever see me. It is also in their puppy books. Copies of all health certifications.
To verify CERF http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html
To verify OFA http://www.offa.org/search.html

Now the puppy I am pretty sure has Coccidia - if you would like to read about it try this link.
http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/beaglehealth_coccidiosis.htm

Also the size bothers me and the hypoglycemic. This should not be something you are dealing with. HAV puppies need to say with mom and siblings till at least 10 weeks and if small probably 12 weeks. Mine are barely weaned by 8 weeks. Also all of you that posted on this seem to think it is good she got the pup out of there. I think it is a shame she took the pup. I would have taken off the other direction - no questions asked. Bleeding hearts is why puppy mills and back yard breeders do such a great business. I would rather send home the healthiest pup around and not have the new owners go through any of this. You pay a lot of money for a health well socialized pup but you are all justifying what this breeder is doing. I hope the health issue right now is all you run into but I wouldn't count on it. The best we can do as breeders is health test and put nothing but the healthest pups on the ground. I can't believe they would send home a pup with bloody diarrhea!
Its your money guys - but this is just wrong.
JMHO!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
That's all well and good, but we were promised the documentation when we agreed to buy the pup. I didn't know that 8 weeks was too young for a Hav pup to leave his mom. But then again, we were lead to believe that the pup was older, I was surprised that he was as young as he was. I tried to get a list of good breeders from havanese.org, but did not get a reply, so went with a well advertised breeder that had several AKC champions.

We traveled from Michigan to Florida, had paid the downpayment, the guy we talked to was gone, and just the wife was there. He had said all the right things, and with showing dogs, we figured he had to have done all the testing, and said that we would have all the papers. Doesn't the AKC require testing of some sort?

Please don't chastise me for not knowing. Next time I will know better. I'll look for a breeder more like yourself. But maybe breeders should be better regulated? Isn't there licensing involved?

I just wanted a puppy to love, that's all. Didn't mean to be a 'bleeding heart'.
 

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I dont think you are a "bleeding heart" and I can tell you that I was lucky to come across my breeder, as years ago I did not do too much research when I got my first. I could have been in the same boat as you! Once you have him it is hard to walk away & I am sure when you are ready for the next - which I am sure you will be at some time - we can all recommend some better more reliable breeders.
 

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sick puppy

That's all well and good, but we were promised the documentation when we agreed to buy the pup. So why didn't you get it when you picked up the puppy?

I didn't know that 8 weeks was too young for a Hav pup to leave his mom. But then again, we were lead to believe that the pup was older, I was surprised that he was as young as he was. When you picked up the pup and saw the size and the age - did you not question it?

I tried to get a list of good breeders from havanese.org, but did not get a reply, so went with a well advertised breeder that had several AKC champions. www.havanese.org has lots of buyerd education and a full section health testing - all you have to do is read it.
We traveled from Michigan to Florida, had paid the downpayment, the guy we talked to was gone, and just the wife was there. He had said all the right things, and with showing dogs, we figured he had to have done all the testing, and said that we would have all the papers. But you left without all that stuff - did you get the full registered names of the parents at least?

Doesn't the AKC require testing of some sort? AKC is just a registry - they are there to police that who your puppy is out of is really who they are out of. Parent clubs suggest the recommended health testing - it is up to the breeders to do and the buyers to police the breeders. A breeder can't sell pups if they buyers won't buy them.

Please don't chastise me for not knowing. Next time I will know better. I'll look for a breeder more like yourself. I am not chastising you. I am chastising all the rest that are agreeing you should have taken the pup. You know in your heart what to do and then you live with the consquenses.

But maybe breeders should be better regulated? Isn't there licensing involved? Licesnsing involved for commercial breeders definitely - did you ask to see it? I don't know who you bought from and really don't care - but you need to make sure in your mind all is as he told you and I think you knew things weren't exactly what they should have been when you got there. I commend you for going to get the pup - instead of just having it shipped. I have no doubt you will be a good home and the pup is in a better place.

I just wanted a puppy to love, that's all. Didn't mean to be a 'bleeding heart'.
This is why pets stores and puppy mills and back yard breeders are in business. If they couldn't sell the pups - they would quit breeding them. It all comes down to education and getting the point across the puppy buyers. I wish I knew how to do that.

If there was a way to educate the public - I would be doing it. One of the biggest problems is gettiing the point across to the buying public BEFORE they spend money on a sick pup. You have the right to get a healthy pup from the begining and the puppy has the same rights.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
We did get the full AKC names of the parents, we did not just pick up the pup on the side of the road in a box. I also asked about the age, but she said that 8 weeks was normal for them to let their pups go, and he was a little on the small side, but okay. I've had big dogs, this is my first toy breed. He's quite different from my purebred Bouvier and Rotweiller that I had. I realized the next day that this pup was probably just weened. We are working through this.

I think that I was so tired from driving and so infatuated with this pup, that I didn't think to check the folder with the health papers, just took her word that they were in there. I looked at the vet paper (which my vet took a copy of, I think he's calling that guy), but didn't check the rest.

My vet is treating Skiver with a sulva drug, so that if he has Coccidia, it will take care of it. Interesting to note that when we called the breeder from the road, he said to take it to the vet and get Albon, which is one of the drugs for Coccidia. Wonder if he has a problem there? Is there an agency to report him to?

I did read all of havanese.org, which is why I knew about the testing, and why I asked the breeder about it. He assured me he did testing, and that he tracked his line. He wants us to keep the dog for show, but I don't want to, don't want to give him more business.

The reason I drove over 3000 miles in 4 days was to get a dog from a breeder and not a pet store. I assumed (falsely I guess) that a person who shows dogs and has champions would be a responsible breeder.

I guess this can serve as a warning, but I really don't feel I did anything wrong. I went with good faith, did everything I was supposed to do, but perhaps I wasn't as pushy and suspicious as I should have been. At least not as knowledable about the breed. Nevertheless, I have a beautiful puppy that I'm sure will be just fine. I saw 2 of his half-siblings, and his mom, they were healthy and happy looking.
 

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Sick pup

If you got the parents full names you can verify what has been done on
either of the links I gave you.
Did you get the puppy's papers? You should have a full size sheet which is the litter form - that you submit to AKC to get your papers. You are entitled to this and this can be reported to AKC if you didn't get papers.

As far as the coccidia - we pretreat for that wiht Albon and for Giardia with Panacur.

At 4 weeks everyone gets treated for 5 days with Panacur and for 10 days with Albon. Then we check after that - but it is hard to get either to show up in the stools. You just have to keep testing. Sometimes the lab test is much more comprehensive than the flotation. So we usually end up doing that around 10 weeks.

You are right - in a perfect world - someone that shows should be health testing and a responsible breeder - unfortunately some people don't care about their kids let alone their dogs. Dogs are disposable. You just have to do the best you can - and I would have been really fried after driving all that way - and I probably would have been hard pressed to leave the pup - but this whole senario just makes me mad! You just can't trust anyone any more and you shouldn't have even run into this. So much for a perfect world.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
No, we didn't get the pup's papers. I'm going to report that one to the AKC. I know we won't get the limited AKC papers until he gets fixed, but Yeah, I thought we were supposed to get his pedigree.

Nope, not a perfect world. And I couldn't leave the pup. He came into my arms and kissed me right away and just melted; then my heart melted too.:)
 

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So now what? This was a supposed "good" breeder with show dogs. When you research a breeder through AKC or HCA, you tend to get the same people listed as breeders. Should we trust these lists if this is going to happen? As consumers we can only do so much research. This breeder knew that you were driving a long way and once you saw the puppy, you weren't leaving without it. If you do send any letters, vet bills, etc., please make sure you send them certified mail so you have a paper trail, and keep copies of everything for yourself.
 
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