Havanese Forum banner

1 - 20 of 1006 Posts

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
28,033 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've decided to share with everyone here something exciting in our lives that has been in the "works" for a while. A FEW people here know, but not many. It has taken me a LONG time to come to the decision, but last summer I made the decision to breed Panda on her next heat if everything went right. I thought you folks might like to come along on the journey, through the ups and downs as they happen. For all we know, there could be no puppies! Because that's the reality in breeding dogs. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I decided that that's part of the process too, and the rest of you might be interested in coming along for the ride too, with a first-time breeder.

Partially, I've put off making this announcement this long that is because I did not want to be deluged with PM's, considering how many people come to the forum looking for puppies. It is NOT ALLOWED to sell puppies on the forum. So please keep this in mind. I will update this thread as things go forward, and today, I'll bring you up to date so far. Those of you who have been on the forum for a while know bits and pieces of this about Panda, but I'll put it all here in one place for newer folks.

I had no intention of getting another dog when I got Panda. I already had two, and one (Pixel) was still a puppy. And older puppy, but still a puppy. But it was love at first sight. And she was VERY special. Well-bred, good conformation, VERY pretty, and a charming "Look at me!!!" personality. When her breeder offered her to me, I couldn't say no!

The deal from the beginning was that I would show her to her championship as well as in performance events. Because she was being shown in conformation, she had to be kept intact. Since THAT was the case, I decided I wanted to go through the process of getting all her health testing done, even though I had no clear intention of breeding her. (I also knew how often breeders have their hopes dashed by health testing!) But her health testing all came back A-OK and she has her CHIC number. She has been every bit the worker I thought she would be, with multiple performance titles, and she finished her conformation championship in minimal showing with two 5-point majors.

So after thinking it through carefully, and with this enforced break in our show and performance schedules because of Covid, and after discussing it with several breeders that I respect highly, I decided that I would breed her.

Then came choosing "Mr. Right". Looking through pedigrees, assessing structure and temperament, etc. A prospective mate has to not only be a "nice dog", but a good fit for your bitch. You want to try to improve any weaknesses, while still staying close in type. You will read all kinds of opinions about "line breeding", and how closely related dogs should be. As an inexperienced breeder, I do not feel comfortable with close breedings, so I definitely wanted to avoid that. I finally arranged to breed her to a very nice, well-known stud dog.

Then the long wait for her to come into season. Her "six-month date" would have been Nov. 1. I arranged for her first visit to the repro vet we were referred to by our regular vet on Oct. 31. (I am VERY lucky to have a good repro vet just 20 minutes from my house!!!) The very nice new vet agreed with me that she wasn't showing ANY signs of heat yet, and we arranged that I would call her to arrange next steps when she came in.

And so we waited. And waited. For THREE MONTHS!!! Panda FINALLY decided to come in last Sunday. Great.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the chosen boy is in Florida showing, and won't be home until the end of Feb. After talking to the stud owner, it became apparent that it just wasn't going to work. In normal times, she and I could fly down there. Not with Covid.

To be continued...
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
28,033 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Having lost our stud dog, we needed to make other plans FAST! A few days of frantic phone call consults between myself and several breeder friends ensued, with us poring over the possible suspects within driving distance. "These two are too large. This one is too closely related. That one is not her type. The one is long-backed and so is she... we don't want to double up on that."

Then... "Hey, wait!" **** (of the "oops" litter in the fall, and sire to two "forum pups") is now two, and got all his health testing fast-tracked at that point! He is similar in breeding in terms of the TYPE of breeding (one side European lines one side old American lines) but no overlapping ancestors in 5 generations. **** has a wonderful, sweet, out-going disposition, is VERY cute and shorter backed than she is. ...And he's available and close by... only about 40 minutes from my house! So I called his breeder and asked her. **** actually belongs to her daughter Sarah, who also agreed to the arranged marriage!

Yesterday Panda went back to the repro vet for a progesterone test for us to find out how close she is to being ready to breed. She also had a vaginal cytology done just to make sure she was healthy. (yes) Her progesterone was at 2.1, leading the vet(s) (****'s breeder is a vet too!) to guess that she will ovulate on Wed. or Thurs. She will go back to the vet for another progesterone test on Thurs. and in all likelihood, will be bred on Friday and Sunday... POSSIBLY Tuesday if she will still stand for him.

So with any luck, by this weekend, Nauti Herd Compact Flash and Fivefield's **** Amazing will have tied the knot! :)
 

Attachments

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
28,033 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Good! I'm hoping people will enjoy it... And learn as I do. Feeling excited and a bit overwhelmed at the same time!

And TRYING not to over-buy until I KNOW there are puppies on the way. I have the whelping box, and a couple of friends have given me a few other things I'll need, but I'm trying NOT to buy too much until I know FOR SURE there are puppies in there!
 

·
Arf! Arf!
Joined
·
3,389 Posts
I have the whelping box, and a couple of friends have given me a few other things I'll need, but I'm trying NOT to buy too much until I know FOR SURE there are puppies in there!
Just to prove my ignorance, what is a "whelping box" - size, dimensions, materials? How do you determine when Panda is pregnant - temperature, progesterone, ? Could Panda's weight gain be a function of that she is in heat? :preggers: When would a litter be expected IF the stars are aligned? Panda is a B/W Parti and **** appears to be a light champagne color (chocolate?). What hair colors are dominant and recessive?

Ricky's Popi
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,319 Posts
And, just to show everyone that there's no such thing as a dumb question, when a good breeder breeds dogs, do they usually just put the dogs together at the right time and let them "do the wild thing?" Or are the bitches frequently artificially inseminated?
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
28,033 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just to prove my ignorance, what is a "whelping box" - size, dimensions, materials?
I put a product shot photo of the Durawhelp I am using below. They can be made of a lot of different things... They can be a big cardboard box... Some people use plastic kiddie pools. The one I'm using is a commercially available one made of lightweight corrugated plastic boards. A lot of people I know use them and like them. If Panda had gone into heat when she SHOULD have, I could have borrowed one... But since she was so late... her need will overlap with another litter and I had to buy one. It's about 3' square and has a "pig rail" that supposedly allows the puppies to get out from under a mom who might accidentally trap them between her body and the edge of the box. There is a low section on the front to allow the mom to get in and out easily while keeping the pups from crawling out. There is a piece that you can slide into that slot to make SURE the puppies stay put when mom isn't in there with them.

How do you determine when Panda is pregnant - temperature, progesterone, ?
Normally, she would start to develop more prominent nipples, and start to develop a bit of a belly. About 30 days after breeding, she will have an ultrasound, to confirm pregnancy and to give us a VERY ROUGH estimate on numbers.

Could Panda's weight gain be a function of that she is in heat? :preggers:
LOL! NOW you sound like DAVE! She hasn't been BRED yet! She is NOT pregnant, and there is no reason to gain weight. The ONLY reason for weight gain was increased calories. Plus, she wasn't even in heat when it happened. This started at the end of Oct., when I switched her food, and DAVE started feeling "broody" and "eating for two". I'm going to get both of you a jar of pickles! ;) She came into heat 9 days ago. ;)

More seriously, she should not gain any weight during pregnancy until the second half of her pregnancy. It is not unusual for bitches to actually lose their appetite during the latter part of their pregnancy, just because the pups are pressing on all their internal organs.

When would a litter be expected IF the stars are aligned?
If I'm counting right, (and I'm a novice here) I believe they would be due right around Easter. "The Easter Bunny litter" ;)

Panda is a B/W Parti and **** appears to be a light champagne color (chocolate?). What hair colors are dominant and recessive?
**** is a gold sable. He would have to have brown skin on his nose and around his eyes to be a chocolate. (chocolate has nothing to do with hair color really... it is the pigment color that makes a dog a chocolate) He CARRIES chocolate... We know that because he sired several pretty chocolate puppies in his "oops" litter. His grandma is a beautiful chocolate. But Panda does not carry chocolate, and chocolate puppies must get a chocolate gene from each parent. So there won't be any chocolate puppies. OTOH, Panda's dam is a pretty red sable. (photo below) ****'s dam is a black irish pied, and we KNOW he can produce B&W parti, because he is sire to Fezzik. **** COULD also carry "ee" (clear red) because his sire is clear red, but since Panda has no clear red in her background anywhere, that really has no chance of expression. So the puppies could be B&W or any shade of sable. Probably. But Havanese can surprise you. ;)
 

Attachments

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
28,033 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
And, just to show everyone that there's no such thing as a dumb question, when a good breeder breeds dogs, do they usually just put the dogs together at the right time and let them "do the wild thing?" Or are the bitches frequently artificially inseminated?
It can be done either way. Sometimes distance makes AI the only possibility. Sometimes there can be reasons to worry about the safety of one dog or the other, which leads to an AI. With Havanese, if either dog had a temperament that made a natural breeding "unsafe", I'm not sure _I_ would want to do it. More experienced breeders might have other thoughts on that. I have been told that live cover if you can arrange it, results in a better chance at pregnancy, and a better chance at a larger litter. side by side AI is next, shipped cooled semen is next, and frozen semen is last. But there are reasons why someone might want to choose any of these.

In my particular case, Panda, at 5, is on the older end for a maiden bitch. She is not old to have a litter, but she is old to have a FIRST litter. I am also not at ALL sure there will be any MORE litters. This may very well be a "one time only" thing for both of us. (we both want to get back to playing in the obedience ring when Covid is over!) In which case, I wanted to stack the odds in our favor as much as we could.

Also, even with live cover, it's not TOTALLY "letting them do the wild thing". The stud dog's owner and I will both be there, supervising closely, and making sure that they stay quiet while tied, so that neither one of them gets hurt.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,562 Posts
This is so exciting! Such a beautiful couple! 💞 Thanks for letting us all be part of Panda and ****'s journey!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
I don’t often comment on here as I usually don’t half have the knowledge about Havanese questions that you guys do but wow this is so exciting:cheer2: I just had to say congratulations on your decision to breed Panda!

Panda and **** are going to make such cute puppies:x Can’t wait to see what an adorable mummy Panda will be and what Auntie Pixel and Uncle Kodi will make of things:grin2:

Thanks so much for sharing this with us all Karen!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
546 Posts
This is super exciting!! I will definitely be following this new adventure :)
 

·
Arf! Arf!
Joined
·
3,389 Posts
I don't often comment on here as I usually don't half have the knowledge about Havanese questions that you guys do
Anyone who is clever enough to have a screen name like @GoWithTheFlo has a lot to contribute! It is also interesting to hear about Havanese from Europe - what do you feed them, travel to EU countries, indigenous canine diseases and pests, etc. It is good to get a different perspective.

You probably already know this bit of dog trivia, but I bet not many in the US do! The Canary Islands are NOT named after the Canary bird, I know I thought that. :eek: The Canary Islands were originally discovered and populated by the Spanish. They called them "Las Islas de Canarios" (the Islands of dogs) canario = canine = dog in Spanish. The islands were heavily populated by a unique species of dog. I think the species is now extinct. When the English claimed the islands, they Anglicized the Spanish name to "the Canary Islands."

Also, I just finished watching the movie, "The Dig" on Netflix. It is the true story of the discovery and excavation of an Anglo-Saxon king's grave site, dating from the 6th century, by Basil Brown in 1939 on Edith Pretty's estate in Suffolk. It is called the "Sutton Hoo" discovery. The discovery is said to be equally important to King Tut's tomb by archaeologists. The king's dog was found buried with the king and the skeleton has been preserved. The dog appears to be about 40 pounds of unknown breed. Now I want to go to London to see the exhibit at the Royal Museum! Maybe the next time you go to London you could go to the museum and take some pictures on my behalf! Also have a meal on my behalf at Wagamamas (Asian fusion) restaurant. @krandall they have an outlet in Boston too.

My ancestors came from County Longford in Ireland. :wink2: It is fortunate that God loves the Irish because they can be a very difficult people, but we do love dogs.

Ricky's Popi
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,406 Posts
Our whelping boxes are 2'x3'. When it's time to start with the litter box, 3' wide will be pretty wide. I made the starting litter box. I probably have a thread somewhere here with pictures, and details.

The sleeping space has to be just the right size. Big enough for Mom to get in, and nurse, but no larger than absolutely necessary, so the pups get full use of their instinct not to soil their bed.

We've put the litter box start earlier, and earlier, until it's now no later than 3 weeks, and depending on how agile the pups are, can be earlier than that.

Pam can give you a list of stuff to have on hand at whelping.

edited to add: We also just watched The Dig a few nights ago. Also highly recommended is A Hidden Life. The story is long, slow, and sad, but the cinematography of the Austrian old farm life, buildings, and scenery is just stunning.
 

·
Metrowest, MA
Joined
·
28,033 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Our whelping boxes are 2'x3'. When it's time to start with the litter box, 3' wide will be pretty wide. I made the starting litter box. I probably have a thread somewhere here with pictures, and details.

The sleeping space has to be just the right size. Big enough for Mom to get in, and nurse, but no larger than absolutely necessary, so the pups get full use of their instinct not to soil their bed.
I was guessing on the size... It's the same size that Elinor and Elizabeth use, so I'm sure it's OK. I just haven't even taken it out of the box yet! It is square, though! I'll put a photo of Poppy in Elinor's below. (and Panda is bigger than Poppy)

We've put the litter box start earlier, and earlier, until it's now no later than 3 weeks, and depending on how agile the pups are, can be earlier than that.
Yup! These puppies will DEFINITELY be started in the "Pam and Tom early litter box training system"! :)

Pam can give you a list of stuff to have on hand at whelping.
I'm fully intending to call her. I just know she's kind of up to her ears right now, but some go home soon... And Panda isn't even bred yet, so there is time on mine!

And for other people reading, this is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL! NO ONE should be breeding dogs without at least one, preferably a couple (especially if one is long distance! ;) ) of experienced, top-notch breeders to mentor you. There is just WAY too much to learn to try to wing it on your own the first few times. I feel so lucky that I have been able to learn from Pam and Tom and my local breeder friends over the past almost 12 years now.

edited to add: We also just watched The Dig a few nights ago. Also highly recommended is A Hidden Life. The story is long, slow, and sad, but the cinematography of the Austrian old farm life, buildings, and scenery is just stunning.
I want to watch BOTH of these!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ShamaMama

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,106 Posts
Oh I'm so going to follow this thread!! How exciting. I had to Google "repro vet". Duh! The sire is gorgeous! This is going to be so much fun!
 

·
Arf! Arf!
Joined
·
3,389 Posts
I am very excited for Panda's new adventure. I know she will be a loving Mama. Too bad it didn't work out with the first sire, I know from experience they would have produced a beautiful litter :wink2::wink2::wink2: but I am prejudiced. **** is a pretty boy and they should produce a colorful litter. I will be watching this thread closely with much interest!

Ricky's Popi
 

·
"I AM the Brute Squad"
Joined
·
2,234 Posts
Awww... **** is a doll. He was so sweet and had serious zoomies!

I am excited for you!
 
1 - 20 of 1006 Posts
Top