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Wha wha what? 😮 🤯 I had no idea that was possible! Just imagine the complications that would cause in humans! Oh perish the thought!

Thanks for asking the question, Popi!
Fun fact - it actually could happen in humans too (with fraternal twins) :)
"Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, the release of multiple eggs in a single cycle. Superfecundation describes a situation in which each of the eggs are fertilized by sperm from different men, leading them to have different biological fathers (making the twins half-siblings). The appropriate term to describe this situation is heteropaternal superfecundation. " DNA tests are used for this too.
 

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Wha wha what? 😮 🤯 I had no idea that was possible! Just imagine the complications that would cause in humans! Oh perish the thought!
You bring up a good point about humans. Identical twins result from splitting one egg. Fraternal twins result from the co-development of two separate eggs. I guess that it is theoretically possible for human fraternal twins to have different fathers under the right circumstances.

So, this brings up another question. PANDA had 5 distinctly different pups resulting from 5 different eggs. Do dogs ever have identical twins in the same litter?
 

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Fun fact - it actually could happen in humans too (with fraternal twins) :)
"Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, the release of multiple eggs in a single cycle. Superfecundation describes a situation in which each of the eggs are fertilized by sperm from different men, leading them to have different biological fathers (making the twins half-siblings). The appropriate term to describe this situation is heteropaternal superfecundation. " DNA tests are used for this too.
How did I get through ‘erhm’ years of my life without knowing that?! Surely there are books or at least movies about this potentially explosive situation! If not, I think may I have just conceived the idea for my very first novel right here! 😜
 

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... Do dogs ever have identical twins in the same litter?
When we were raising Dals, we didn't do DNA testing to check, but I would swear we had identical twins in one litter - since all Dalmatians have different spot patterns and no two are the same (except, I would think hypothetically identical twins that are genetically identical) - we had two whose spot patterns weren't just similar but were exactly the same.
 

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So, overnight update..

. I woke during the night to find her trying to get on my bed (tummy too sore to jump up) and saw that she had put ALL the puppies UNDER the vet fleece, on top of the heating pad!

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Awwwww! Mama Panda was wanting her MaMa and was trying to get home. 💗
 

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Metrowest, MA
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Discussion Starter #268
I have a couple of questions for Karen when she has time.

  • I believe Karen said PANDA 'hooked up' with HEBEE three times over a one or two week period. Since PANDA had a litter of five, could individual pups have been conceived at different hook ups? In other words, can some of the pups be at different ages depending when they were conceived, maybe a week apart?
  • At what point do you decide at what age pups will available to be sent to their forever homes?
As Michelle said, yes, with live cover, you typically want at least two, preferably 3 ties if you and the stud owner have time. They are soaced with a “day off” in between, for two reasons. First because sperm survives for several days, and second so that the boy’s sperm level recovers in between. He can TIe many more times than he can actually “deliver the goods”. 😉 ( true of humans too... after having a VERY hard time conceiving my first, I know ALL about the importance of timing for humans! 😉

In our case, we did not just let the dogs tell us, since they do not live together, and it was important to get her pregnant THIS time. So I paid for progesterone (blood) tests every 2 days during that period too, so that we could time breeding to hit her most fertile period. And yes, these pupies do not come from a single egg and sperm that divide. They are all separate eggs that hook up with separate sperm swimming around in there. THAT SAID, it makes NO DIFFERENCE when the actual sex act takes place. The eggs all implant into the uterus at approximately the same time, and start to divide and become puppies. That all happens in response to the mother’s hormones. Until then, think of it as if it were in vitro fertilization of eggs and sperm in a dish... but inside the mom. It is the implantation that starts the puppies growing. So they are all the same age, no matter how many times they mated (or how many studs were involved. (Incidentally, Panda is from a dual sired litter too. She has 2 full siblings, and 6 half sibling littermates)
You bring up a good point about humans. Identical twins result from splitting one egg. Fraternal twins result from the co-development of two separate eggs. I guess that it is theoretically possible for human fraternal twins to have different fathers under the right circumstances.

So, this brings up another question. PANDA had 5 distinctly different pups resulting from 5 different eggs. Do dogs ever have identical twins in the same litter?
I suppose it is POSSIBLE, in practice, I haven’r heard of it. That would mean that they would be delivered in the same sack on the same placenta, so it would be pretty obvious.
According to this article it has happened before, but is extremely rare. A dog has given birth to the first identical twin puppies
It seems to be SO rare that every article I could find (and there are quite a few!) refer to this same pair!
 

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Metrowest, MA
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Discussion Starter #269
How did I get through ‘erhm’ years of my life without knowing that?! Surely there are books or at least movies about this potentially explosive situation! If not, I think may I have just conceived the idea for my very first novel right here! 😜
Must have been quite the party? :giggle: :ROFLMAO:
 
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Metrowest, MA
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Discussion Starter #270
When we were raising Dals, we didn't do DNA testing to check, but I would swear we had identical twins in one litter - since all Dalmatians have different spot patterns and no two are the same (except, I would think hypothetically identical twins that are genetically identical) - we had two whose spot patterns weren't just similar but were exactly the same.
I would think you’d know if you were there at the whelping, because the puppies would be in the same sack, with the same placenta attached to two cords...
 

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Marion
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Fun fact - it actually could happen in humans too (with fraternal twins) :)
"Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, the release of multiple eggs in a single cycle. Superfecundation describes a situation in which each of the eggs are fertilized by sperm from different men, leading them to have different biological fathers (making the twins half-siblings). The appropriate term to describe this situation is heteropaternal superfecundation. " DNA tests are used for this too.
I just read an article this morning about a woman in England who had twins conceived three weeks apart. Extremely rare - called superfetation. Babies were born at the same time, but one was much smaller and about three weeks behind her older brother, developmentally. (Sounds like something out of the National Enquirer, but it was in the Washington Post!)
 

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I would think you’d know if you were there at the whelping, because the puppies would be in the same sack, with the same placenta attached to two cords...
True - but I was around 12 at the time and don't even remember if I was there (though my parents were) - or if they noticed/ made note of them being in the same placenta. :)
 

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Metrowest, MA
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Discussion Starter #274
True - but I was around 12 at the time and don't even remember if I was there (though my parents were) - or if they noticed/ made note of them being in the same placenta. :)
Plus, I know that depending on how the whelping is going, it can get pretty darned hectic at times. Things can get missed in the flurry.

...or a whole whelping can be missed and a litter found on the garage floor! :ROFLMAO:
 
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Metrowest, MA
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It has been a VERY busy day, where Panda came down with something called “milk fever”... very common in dairy cattle, I am familiar wit it from my days on the horse farm, and I recognized it arpt once in Panda at 5AM when she was clearly disoriented and confused, rushing around the room, panting, trying to burrow under things, pushing into FURNITURE and MOVING it. She NEVER tried to hurt her babies (and they can savage puppies in this state) but she was clearly HIGHLY distressed. I took one look at her and had a good idea what was going on. Fortunately, I had calcium supplement on hand and gave her some. It helped. I gave her more two ophours later and called the vet when they opened at 8AM.

They confirmed my guess, and said that I had turned it around by giving her the calcium when I did. They increased the amount of calcium I had given her to twice that dose for as long as she is nursing, twice a day.

Meanwhile, the puppies still are not gaining as much weight as they would like (not totally unsurprising after a C-section, but a balancing act. You don’t want to supplement too soon or too much or you can interfere with the mom’s milk coming in. At the same time, you can’t wait TOO long without putting the puppies in danger. They had hour her on a nasal spray form of oxytocin to help her milk come in. But I guess they hadn’t really thought about the fact that a human nasal spray device (which this is) doesn’t FIT in a toy dog’s nostril. As a result, I was not at all sure, I was getting the full dose into her. OTOH, it is a powerful drug, and you DON’T want to overdose it, so I had been reluctant to give her too much by spraying it again. So they switched her to an injectible form.

What a difference! I came home, gave her the first shot, her milk let down and the puppies started feeding like they haven’t fed since they were born! They fell off her like fat little ticks into a sleepy, shiny pile and didn’t wake up until it was time to nurse again. I am HOPING we will see a real weight gain tonight or tomorrow morning!

So mom and puppies are doing fine, but I needed a glass of wine after today! LOL!
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Wow..that is all I can say. You definitely deserve a glass of good wine. Beautiful pictures also. So good that you had the calcium supplement ready. So many things to watch out for in these early days.
 

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Discussion Starter #278
Wow..that is all I can say. You definitely deserve a glass of good wine. Beautiful pictures also. So good that you had the calcium supplement ready. So many things to watch out for in these early days.
The vet’s office told me a good trick for the back pocket, which can also be used for a dog with an upset tummy... you can give a dog a half a REGULAR STRENGTH Tums as EITHER a calcium supplement in a case like this OR for an upset tummy.
 

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Discussion Starter #279
May I suggest the following wine glass 😉. Truly though, poor Panda has been through quite a lot in the past several days. How fortunate you have that experience and were able to identify what was happening. Sending positive vibes for all smooth sailing from here and putting the needed weight on the little darlings.

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I would have LOVED that glass of wine, but seeing as I have to set my alarm for 3AM to give her another dose of meds, I think I best pass on that. I WILL admit that on my way home from the vet’s office I detoured past the just-opened for the season ice cream stand and bought myself a BIG ice cream sundae! LOL!
 

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Oh, man. Poor Panda! The thought of her confused and banging around the room an even moving the furniture breaks my heart. I'm glad you had the knowledge of what she needed and got her started right away on that, and then got the vet as soon as they opened! How traumatic. What a relief to find a better dosing for the ocytocin, too! I hope the vet is learning and remembers these things, too, about working with toy sized dogs.

They puppies' coats are so shiny! And the little red and white one looks to be having more color show. They are precious. Thank you for the photos.
 
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