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Goldie and Stogie
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is a new area on a TRIAL basis. Its either going to be great or get out of hand, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Here you can list your breeder, and your experience with them. Good or bad. Stick with the facts, no slander or emotional rambling.

Breeders ...feel free to start a thread and say what you do as a breeder. What health testing do you do? What kind of set up do you keep your dogs in? Are they in kennels or do they live in the house? What do you strive for when breeding, such as temperment...conformation, color, whatever it is. Do you show?

Be prepared to BACK UP what you say. We want photos, we want documentation of health testing. List your bloodlines and dogs.

Im hoping people can ask LOTS of questions. It wont be easy to lie to people here, because lots of people, some in the business and some not, will be watching! SO if you are unethical breeder, think twice before participating, bad practices will be discovered.

One very IMPORTANT RULE: DO NOT ADVERTISE PUPPIES. Don't result to a classified ad about a puppy. New litter photos are fine, just do not say they are for sale or available.

This should be a great learning experience. It will also give people who think they want to breed a look into what it takes, its NOT easy, its NOT profitable and it should be Hard Work! Give the facts but try to keep it friendly.

Melissa
 

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Casper and Missy
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2,194 Posts
Melissa, since the information from the breeder is so important to us, is there anyway we can validate the breeder is who or what he says he is. I hope this doesn't sound bad, but sometimes it is easy for people to be something they are not on-line.
 

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Goldie and Stogie
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Discussion Starter #3
Thats a great question. Im thinking you ask them whats you name, ask for referrals and ask if anyone on here knows them. Every breeder should have referrals you can talk to. And they should post their website.
 

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Sounds good. Just worried about saying a breeder is bad. Is there liability or slander isssues? Maybe you can just use initials and location? I am not sure. I don't have any friends who are lawyers. Do you? Do we have any online?

I would just hate to see someone get involved in a slander suit and some bad breeder try to get money from them. If they are bad breeders to begin with they are just doing things for $ and are always trying to get rich quick.

Maybe it is more like a rating scale. What kind of experience did you have with this breeder? Excellent, Good, Bad. If your experience was bad, please note why in a short paragraph............Maybe if you set up something like that it would avoid rambling (like I am doing now).


On a side note, I have to say I love how this group evolved. It seems like everyone received some education already. Like the thread about health testing......

Take care.

Rita
 

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Casper and Missy
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Rita, has brought up an important issue. I like her idea of good, excel, bad, and limited reply.
 

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Goldie and Stogie
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2,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Yes I agree and I would not let it get out of control with the idea of slander in mind. A rating system is great. And we dont ever have to say anything bad about anyone. A lot of times its not what WE say. But what they DONT say. So when a breeder brings themselves into this mix, we will simply ask questions. They can either prove what they do or cant.

My biggest hope is we can let good breeders shine here. I visualize someone sharing photos of where the puppies grow up. Links to show where they registered health testing results. A family tree so to speak.
Maybe owner referrals on their experience and how the breeder followed up afterwards. When people see what to expect from a good breeder, they will steer clear of the ones who make the cut. I have no problems posting photos of past litters just not current ones. Its not a classified section.

So we dont have to weed out the bad ones, Im thinking they will do that on their own. To be honest, my biggest concern on this new forum was breeders slandering each other. I wont allow that either. Politics can stay on the big lists.
 

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Yoda
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1,210 Posts
I agree with you Melissa, When some one is new on buying a prebreed dog they have no clue what to look for or to do or what to ask a breeder. I know I didnt really know what I was truly doing.Having pictures of pass lilter on how they are being raise is a good Idea.providing that people do not put up current liliters that are for sale.If people use this as it was ment for it will do great . Its all about a learning site and to share storys and get support from others. I love this site Melissa and in time as the word gets out You will have a very big site going LOL are you ready for that LOL Susan
 

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Premium Member
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3,394 Posts
I'm a little too tired to think about this right now. We were up until around 3 am doing breeder stuff last night. I do have a comment on the referrals though. We would never ask one of our puppy buyers to be a reference for us simply because it would be a daily job. Of course any of them would be most welcome to make any comment but we don't ask.
 

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As a breeder, I don't think I am favor of this. I consider myself a good breeder. One that is honest, does health testing, is VERY picky about where my puppies will live forever, doesn't keep dogs in a kennel, etc. What I don't like about this idea is the liability involved here. I live in California, which is a very sue happy state.

I don't feel this is the best way to "educate" the buying public. Personality conflicts can come into play. I tell everyone that contacts me, to find a breeder you (the buyer) can work with, as this commitment to a puppy will be for the life of the puppy and you want a breeder that you like and feel comfortable about. On this forum I have read comments made by people regarding their puppy purchase that should have been red flags against buying from that particular breeder, yet they did it anyway. We live in a society that doesn't want to wait. Instead, they take what they can get now.

I don't soap my dogs, but rather I have xrays done on their fronts. Does that make a bad breeder? I don't think so, just a smart one! Many feel that soaping is a joke, as the only thing it shows is if a dog has a very bad front, but it doesn't show well, some dogs that are in question. The buying public has NO idea what to look for at all in a soaped picture. Those are really for breeders. I could show a buyer a soaped picture, and they would think the dog was fine, but another breeder would say, "oh no, not nice, won't use that dog/bitch for breeding".

I think what is important here is to get the word out to buyers on WHAT to ask and LOOK for, not their opinion about a person.
 

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Melissa,

Maybe we do have to approach this differently. Maybe we need to have our own breeder referral. Just say you like your breeder and why. I think most of us have gotten in the habit of PM people to give others a heads up or ask a question about where they got their dog.

I also am concerned about the person who may not like their breeder because of lack of communication. I not taking about the bad breeders who don't health test but the good breeders. Even my breeder said she could never claim 100% placement more like 97% because of someone who miscommunicated what they wanted or was in left field about what is involved with a new puppy. I think I would question a breeder who told me otherwise.

So, I might like a breeder and you might not like them. It is sort of like I can like a doctor and think he/she is the greatest and you don't like him/her because of their bedside manner. There are times I hesitate about even telling people who my doctor is. I tell them I think she is the greatest but they would have to make their own judgement. Its a tricky thing.


I think I will have to ponder this a little longer::confused:

EEK. I just had another thought. What about the breeder who uses a made up name on this forum and bashes his/her competition.Yikes. Or better yet what about the person I send to my breeder who is a total village idiot!!!!!!! She would never talk to me again.

I better stop thinking, my head hurts.
 

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Senior Member
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458 Posts
Set up a ranking system

You could set up a ranking system similar to the one amazon uses for their books (the 5 stars method), or as in e-opinions where people give a 1 through 10 ranking and are able to post commentary without their names.
If you have cookies set you can avoid people posting their rankings multiple times to get higher grades. Just a thought.
Arlene
www.peluitohavanese.com
p.s. as a breeder I receive comments and complaints about other breeders a lot, I don't know if that happens with some of the breeders on this forum. It's an uncomfortable situation, because the puppy buyer is right in complaining, but what can be done other than maybe bring it to light this way.
 

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Yoda
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1,210 Posts
You all have a point something to think about . Or maybe do it in away of its only a referal list like the AKC site type thing using a referal list at your own risk. Along with a list of question to ask the breeders that are on the list and possible only breeders that post with the proper sites of there testing there will always be a what if or only if or what ever type thing just because there is a list it does not mean its the only one you do have to use common sense right? I would not get into details at all of breeders ect. But a list to go by the basic thing.Kind of like at a dog show how you have meet the breed have a area in this site that tells all about the breed along with a guide of questions to ask or even a breeders list respectable breeders type that is my 2 cent Susan
 

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Hi
I just got the book Grooming for dummies and in it it has the criteria for finding a good breeder . I am sure some breeders and clients set the bar even higher but this is a good starting point .
I do not know if this is helpful to you or not .
I would like to say I wish they had this forum the first time I was looking for my first HAvanese 4 years ago.
I called a lot of breeders and some were so rude they did not even talk to me and others would nit return my e mails or calls . They certainly had an attitude ..
One of them has since left Ca and moved to another state . I think he was having serious issues .
Fortunately I found someone through a friend but I had to wait a long time for my dog .
Hopefully the people who sign on to this website to locate Breeder information are not litigious . Hopefully they are mature adults !! I said hopefully .
I agree Calif is the worst state . I live her too ..
People do
not seem to be able to take responsibility for their actions ,decisions and mistakes . Much easier to place the blame on someone else .
I am sure Melissa can put somekind of disclaimer on the site stating this is just a forum - citing various opinions etc.
It is a sad comment on our society when you are trying to help people and provide helpful information but at the same time you had to protect yourself and do A CYA ..
I will get off my soapbox now
 

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Mom to Ricky and Sammy
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10,319 Posts
Well, I'm all for learning about the experiences other puppy buyers have had with their breeders ..... but there is the whole 'nastiness' that can come out. Melissa has said she'll be controlling that aspect of things should it get to that point so it should be fine.

I have to say that although there was much about Ricky's breeder that I liked, the thing I don't like is lack of interest on their part and communication. I was assured they wanted news and updates, pics too, but if I don't write with a question or comment, then I don't ever hear from them. :( In fact, I wrote 5 days ago and still haven't heard a thing. The woman also got certain things confused which made me a little worried at first, but I realized soon enough that she was just confused for real! lol Dates and stuff mixed up, so not the end of the world.

We visited them at home where they raise and breed their dogs and it was a very good experience. I am not at all worried about Ricky's heritage and health - at least, as much as one can be not worried!

I'm interested in seeing how this thread goes and if we do decide to list our breeders ..... coming from Canada, it will be nice to see what other Cdn. members experience.
 

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Hi
Yes I had the same response from my breeder when I was send updates about Cosmo I would receive terse replies . I got the feeling she could care less about him . Sad !!.
I finally stopped e mailing her . If he were on of my puppies I would love to know how he was doing ..
I do not know if it is that she did not want to know or if she was just too busy showing her dogs or breeding . Anyway I revisited her web site which she has improved and updated and it looks even better than before . Now it seems like she is interested in improving her marketing tools but not that keen on hearing about the progress of her dogs .
Maybe I am being overly sensitive and too harsh . I have no intention of returning the dog he is part of our family and we love him to pieces..
I had the same expereince with my first breeder . She ws very eager to hear all about the puppy until he had a breeding irregularity - his teeth did not come in correctly and he had a bit of an overbite .
I called to tell her not because I was upset or dissatisfied . I loved that little guy with all my heart and to me he was perfect . But from a breeding standpoint I thought she should know and I told her that . No way did I want to return the dog but I just thought she should be aware of it .. The vet recommended that I call her and let her know .. Well I guess she only wanted to hear good things as I never heard from her again either ..
 

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Mom to Ricky and Sammy
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10,319 Posts
I wouldn't mind if the breeder just has no time or desire to correspond with me, if that is just how she is, but she kept telling me how she wanted me to keep in touch, send pictures that she wanted to add to her website, let her know if I had any questions or concerns. I get WAY more support and encouragement from the lists, and now even more from this forum than I ever did from the breeders! Anyway, I didn't expect to use them as a support group. I just thought they'd want to know how the pup is doing now and then.

I just wrote her to let her know that Ricky had his neutering done and asked what I need to send her so I can get his registration papers from CKC, but still no news. I know I'll get them (and to be honest, it doesn't even matter to me whether I have papers or not!), but I just wish she took the time to reply and be more 'on the ball' about things. I could always call her, but I'll give her a couple more days and see what happens. It's been a week already. Maybe they're on vacation!? lol
 

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Casper and Missy
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2,194 Posts
I think one of the best things we can do for the Havanese breed as Havanese Lovers (as we all are) is to design a good thread here that will help people know more about the breeders before they purchase their puppy, as they would if all of us shared our experiences that we had with our breeders and rated the breeder.

Say, I am going to buy a puppy and I read something in one of these threads about the breeder I am going to buy from that I don't like, I can put it out on the table with the breeder right up front before I purchase the puppy. If I don't like their response I would go else where.

If the breeder has a bad rating - the prospective buyer at least knows to beware.

The end results, happier puppy owners, better experience for them, eliminate some of the worries and concerns, problems some of us had. And if it ends up where some of the not so good breeders have to get better to stay in business, what does that do Help the Havanese dogs and owners! Which is what we want to do here because we love them!

Maybe we need a couple of threads; 1. rate your breeder 2. breeder response ?
 

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Hi
I guess we would have to chose various criteria to rate them not just as an overall breeder..
Now this is more serious and some inside information we would never be privy to . Some of it would be common sense . health testing and guarantees , innoculations return policy etc parents lineage .
I received a lot of information with Cosmo and I was very appreciative of her handouts and dietary recommendations and shot and worming record and cautions about the breed .
Asta was like bringing a baby home from the hospital and not having a clue .. Fortunately he was a hardy little guy and he did well and passed his physical with flying colors ..
Some of us may have personality issues with the breeder and others may think they are fantastic ..
The second breeder I went to was much more organized and it was obvious she knew her dogs . She was very active in the show ring and an keen conscientious breeder .. She also guarantees them for 5 years and if you could not keep the dog for any reason she wanted to have first refusal .
Asta was a different story even though he was considerd pick of the litter . Hmm- in retrospect what does that mean .. He was an adorable puppy but as he got older he was a little irregular looking . He had an amazing personality happy and charming and to me a little love and a great dog ..

Did he have breeding potential as show dog I do not think so .. I did think however if he was used he would have had the nicest children with the best personalities .. I do not think he would have been picked to play do you ?
See a lot of it is so individual opinion ,desires and personal taste too .

However I do think it would be helpful if we had some kind of system and people would not be wasting a lot of time and spinning their wheels ..

There are problems however as some breeders have more dogs to breed than others some are smaller and very selective and you have to wait for a dog . I mean wait . I waited over 8 months for Asta ..
Sometimes they have small litters , others are overacheivers and have 5 .
What happens then when they only have a litter of one .

I have seen the programs on Animal Planet where they are expecting a litter and there are complications and the health of the mother and puppies is compromised . It can sometimes be heartbreaking .

These caring people conscientious breeders have my utmost respect ..
The fact that I was provided with such a wonderful dog to me is a gift . So they are too busy for the latest update and to e mail me back . That is OK with me . I send her a picture when he gets has his first birthday and he has a candle on his cake ..
 

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I hope something comes of this. As much as we do research on a breeder, we still have to be extra cautious. I still keep in touch with Kodi's breeder every few months and she always replies to my emails. However, I am not having the same luck with Shelby's "breeder". She still has not replied to my email requeting the CERF papers she promised me. And it makes me more mad because I have checked the CERF website and have not had any luck.
Let the buyer beware!
 
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