[krandall]

Thanks for the detailed reply mudpuppymama!

Sorry, I didn't elaborate, with our Dachshund this happened maybe 4 times and for less than a few minutes at a time.
I guess we got the wrong information about being "cuddle bugs".

1. Is the Havapoo more of a "cuddle bug"?
2. What benefits do you see on a Havapoo vs. a Havanese regarding our wish list? So far I see a possible negative on the Havapoo for being more prompted to IVDD as a result of the poodle mixed.
3. Is there any other breed that you know of, with all these qualities but with a low-maintenance coat (short hair)?

Thanks again

Alex

There are no benefits to a Havapoo. It is not a “breed”. It is a mix, and completely unpredictable in terms of what you will get. Worse, it will be an unpredictable cross between two poorly bred individuals of their own breeds because no reputable breeder would ever allow their dog to be used to produce these crosses.

No dog really likes to be “cuddled”. Havanese are about as affectionate as a dog gets. My dogs love spending time with me. They enjoy being stroked they will come and lie against me on the couch. ONE of them likes to get in my lap sometimes. But when it is his idea. NONE of them want to be “cuddled”. Stuffed animals are a much better bet for that.

And “Poo” crosses have TERRIBLE coats, because you have added a curly coat to a non-curly coat. Ask any groomer what they think of grooming Doodles. (Which is basically what a “Havapoo” is)

 

[krandall]

I think the reason warning bells go off for me whenever people talk about wanting a “cuddly” Havanese” (even though I have one on me and one against me as I write this) is that I have so often seen people want to “cuddle” a dog when THEY want it, for THEIR needs. This is really something that needs to be initiated by they animal, and accepted by the human. You can’t force it on the dog.

How often have we had people come onto the forum, complaining that their Havanese puppy will not allow rgem to cuddle it? A LOT!

 

[krandall]

It could be true. The part that is weird that Shadow is super friendly and affectionate with any stranger he meets. He is SO happy to love any person he meets and listens to their every command. But me, nothing. He may not have really bonded with me since I got him at 10 months after he was at a few homes. I "think" he was more affectionate and pleased with me in our early days. It could be that he feels secure with me and does not have to win me over.
I probably need a pet shrink to figure him out!

But isn’t that what love is all about? It sounds like he loves you a lot that he is that secure and comfortable with you. He doesn’t geel the NEED to show it extravagantly all the time. He figures you KNOW he loves you! As a married couple of over 40 years, my husband and I don’t need to be hugging and kissing every 5 minutes like love sick teenagers… We both know we love each other. We hop into bed, a quick peck on the cheek and fall asleep most nights, and that’s plenty. It doesn’t in the LEAST mean that we love each other any less.

 

[krandall]

Thanks, krandall, Johanna, LWalks, Pucks104, mudpuppymama, HappyCamper, Molly120213, CarolineS and Tere

Where do I start? This has been an avalanche of very valuable data compiled from years of knowledge!

LWalks even shared a lovely photo.

This is what I gathered out of all of this amazing information.

Affection:
There is no such a thing as a cuddle bug and looking back at our dachshund (I'm not typing her name because it’s still painful) may have been more affectionate than we thought. She always wanted to be in the same room as us and on the same furniture. In bed, she wanted to be under the blankets and we never knew we could have made her care more for our kids with the help of some training. Plus we just needed to understand that, as some of you mentioned, they are not teddy bears, so I was thinking the grass was greener on the other side. After all that, it can’t be compared to a Havanese when it comes to affection, my son and nephew both have had interactions with different Havanese and they tell me is just another level of trust and joy even with strangers.

Havapoo:
I will stay away because it seems to be even harder to groom.

Do you guys know of any other breed with the attributes of the Havanese minus the high level of grooming maintenance? 🙏

Well, Cavaliers have lovely, loving temperaments, and need a lot less grooming. But they shed a TON, and also will break your heart with their health problems.

A Havanese kept in a puppy cut really needs very little grooming between hair cuts. Not like a dachshund, but there are really none with this sort of temperament that do. I would NOT , however, call a Havanese in a puppy cut “high maintenance”. I run a comb through Panda about once a week.

And yes, you are in the right range, price wise, for a well bred Havanese puppy. The demand is high and they do not have exceptionally large litters

 

[krandall]

If you value the size of a Havi, with a little less coat maintenance, you might want to look into a Shi Tzu or a Lhasa Apso. But, both of those breeds can be quite a bit more vocal, particularly the Lhasas (my breed of choice for decades, up until Marco.) If kept in a full coat, they have the same issues, but both Shis and Lhasas have a less-dense undercoat and harder topcoat, so if you keep them in a kennel cut, they tend to need a lot less grooming...

If you want much less grooming, then perhaps you should look at a Bichon (I also had one of these, she was a sweetheart!) And IMHO (and experience), all 3 of these breeds are a lot less "sensitive" (to various stimulae, as well as to periods of being left alone) than are Havis.

I would never seek out a Havi-anything on purpose, but of course if you run across one at a rescue org and can foster for a while to see how you all do together, that would be better (again, IMHO) than buying from a breeder, only because rescue dogs need to be rescued!!! (Signed - mom of 7 dogs since 1983 - 3 from breeders, and 4 puppy mill rescues)

Lhasas are MUCH more independent (less cuddly) than Havanese (in general) as they were bred to be temple watch dogs rather than companions. They are funny, charming little dogs, but can be strong willed and are VERY different from the Bichon group in temperament even though they might look similar to the uninitiated.

Shih Tzus were at least bred as companions, so have a gentler temperament, but are still less attached to their people, in my experience, than Havanese. That can be good or bad, depending on your view/needs. Shih Tzu are lovely, sweet dogs, and I think fit more casually into a lot of families who “just want a pet” to be there when they come home. In a lot of ways, I think they are less demanding than Havanese.

I honestly don’t think that EITHER of these breeds in a puppy cut are easier to deal with than a Havanese in a puppy cut IF the Havanese is from a good breeder and has a correct coat, AND after blowing puppy coat. I do not know what either of those breeds are like when they blow their puppy coats, although I know both do. I suspect it is somewhat individual how bad it gets. Since virtually ALL pet puppies of those breeds are immediately put into puppy cut at a very young age, I suspect very few people deal with it.

BOTH breeds are a lot barkier than Havanese.

IMO, Bichons, being from the same group as Havanese, are very similar to Havanese in MANY ways except coat color and texture. They are lovely dogs if you don’t mind an all white curly coated dog. They do have more health problems (especially skin problems and allergies) than Havanese.

The others in the Bichon group have other “problems”. Maltese have easier coats (no undercoat, so less matting) but they are BIG barkers, and smaller, more fragile dogs.

Cotons are lovely, and similar to Havanese, but a bit more independent, less biddable, harder to train for sports, (in general, I do no one crackerjack!) and their coats are the HARDEST to manage of any in the group with TONS of cottony undercoat. (And again, you’ve got to want a white dog)

 

[krandall]

I'm using this site to check if the breeder is reputable or not. Not sure this is the best method.

I read on Reddit that if one can't find the breeder on the below site, under the "Breeder and Member Listings" link by scrolling down to Ontario, Canada, is a sign that is not a good breeder. What do you guys think?

https://www.havanesefanciers.com/

I am not sure. Here in the US, there are LOTS of VERY reputable breeders who are not members of HCA, simply because they want to avoid the politics of a national organization. It doesn’t necessarily say anything about the quality of their dogs or the way they raise them. There is a document here on the forum on “vetting out” a breeder. I don’t agree with all of it… Some of the “red flags” are a bit over the top, and there are questions I would ask that are missing. Someday I’ll write a more up to date version. But it’s a good starting place!

 

[krandall]

I think people have different definitions of what high maintenance means to them. It also matters if you live in a high tick or flea area and are planning on using natural means of pest control and no preventatives. Daily combing is essential where I live because of the critters, not so much to prevent mats. I also like to clean their eyes daily and brush their teeth. I don't find these daily grooming tasks to take very much time. However, someone else may find this excessive. I also make their own food which doesn't take much time either, yet people sometimes think this is a momentous task.

I have seen two ticks on my dogs all season here, (with no tick products) so we clearly, (at least THIS season!!!) have a lot less ticks. But you are right. It also makes a difference HOW short you want to take their hair. You CON take them down REALLY short if you want to… I don’t like that look, but I know some people who do it!

 

[krandall]

That is interesting. Same here. I have only found two ticks on my dogs this year with no preventatives! I think it is because we have been in a terrible drought. Last year we had a horrendous tick problem and I had several on me. However, I have gotten a few fleas off each dog in the last month which is quite a surprise. In the 15 years I have had them, they only had a couple fleas on them one year and that was when we had our cat. I feel it is better to check than not check so I will always check them daily. I just would not feel comfortable not checking. You just never know.

And we have been living in a temperate rainforest!!! TONS of rain! It rained at least one day out of almost every weekend all summer! i think we drowned them!!! And as usual, no fleas. I am NOT saying I don’t check for ticks. I do. Thoroughly. But the ones in puppy cuts do not require a comb for that. At least mine don’t. I found the ticks, one not yet embedded, and the other had bitten, but not yet fed. So it was a very new “addition to the family”! LOL!

 

[krandall]

I have found tiny crawling ticks with a comb but more importantly fleas or flea dirt. Whatever works though. Every dog and coat is different. I don't find running a comb through them to be very time consuming. It really helps to get down to the skin effectively. I also get a bit of tiny loose hair so it does not build up.

I enjoy grooming mine, as you know! But this person seems to want as close to no grooming as possible. And all coated breeds are going to require SOME…. (As you know!)

I did think of another breed that we haven’t discussed though, (except as part of a poo-mix) that is probably MORE like like a typical dachshund in terms of energy level, bark, etc., can be groomed to any length for ease of maintenance, and can be super affectionate (if not “cuddly”, as we have explained about MOST dogs!!!)

…AND WAY cheaper… in line, probably with dachshunds because so many people breed them. And that is a Poodle! I would go for a Mini… I like their temperaments better than Toys, and they are sturdier. They are lovely dogs, extremely trainable little clowns, and super affectionate with their family, if not as extravagantly outgoing as some (certainly not all) Havanese. They often get overlooked in the midst of the “doodle craze”, but they are lovely dogs!

 

[krandall]

My understanding is that toy and mini poodles are more prone to IVDD than many other breeds. Since she is coming off a Dachshund which are probably number 1 for IVDD risk, I thought she was looking for a breed where risk is very low. I could be wrong, however in my IVDD research poodles were mentioned as higher risk, especially the toy and minis.

I don’t know how ”high” the risk is, even if it is higher than some other breeds. Certainly NOTHING like Doxies. And it may have something to do with how carefully bred the dogs are too… there are a boat load of BYB and puppy mill Poodles out there too. I know a TON of performance Poodles, who, if a dog was going to have that problem, you’de think it would show up there. And I have not heard of a single one.

 

[krandall]

I can certainly attest to that! My Cali was a wonderful little Poodle. She was utterly devoted to me, was smart and pretty quiet for a Mini. Grooming was much easier. I clipped her myself in what I guess would be called a Sporting Clip, or my version of it anyway, shorter body, longer legs, clipped feet, a fairly modest topknot and a natural tail as she wasn’t docked. I could get away with only brushing/combing her once a week and rarely found mats even though she wore a harness and coats in the winter.

There were a couple of reasons I didn’t get another Poodle. Her breeder moved to the East Coast and no longer breeds Poodles. She was a high energy dog, which was fine when I was 12 years younger and lived in a house with a backyard. They do tend to be a little “barkier” than I wanted to take a chance on in a condo. Last but not least by any means, I just couldn’t bring myself to get another Poodle because I felt none would compare to my Cali. Maybe irrational, but the heart has a mind of its own. ❤

Ollie is now in my version of a puppy clip. Poor boy looks a little funny as I haven’t quite gotten the hang of it yet. Clipping a Poodle is a walk in the park compared to Havanese coats! His hair is probably about 3 inches long right now. I can get away with brushing him every second day, but no longer than that! I suspect once he finishes blowing his puppy coat he may be able to go a bit longer. I think the only way to get around frequent grooming would be to clip the whole dog down to half an inch all over! That’s not a look I care for personally though a lot of people seem to do it.

You are still in adolescent coat. Things change a LOT once they have a fully adult coat. I clipped our Pixel down because I couldn’t keep up with her dense, matty undercoat as an adolescent. But she was so cute in an puppy cut, we never went back!!! She was little and it just suited her! She rarely needed a comb touched to her… unless she rolled in turkey poop!!!
But a few times, we just didn’t get around to trimming her for a LONG time, and her adult coat was very easy. I am sure she would have been very manageable with a lot longer hair. …except for the turkey poop! LOL!

 

[krandall]

I just saw it mentioned several times when researching about IVDD. Breeding may definitely have something to do with it. I thought it was worth mentioning and discussing with a potential breeder.

In one of my reproductive groups it comes up from time to time, and I know that good breeders are aware of it and test for the gene. In the toys, it seems to be the same “short leg gene“ we have in very close to 100% of Havanese but does NOT cause a problem in our breed. (some would say that it is this gene than makes toy breeds “toy sized”. It is NOT the gene that causes CD) I am not sure that minis have this gene, or have it as often as the toys do… maybe another reason to go with minis rather than toys? I am not a “Poodle person”, but my IMPRESSION is that there are less problems in minis than in toys.

 

[krandall]

Toys may also be more fragile and not handle the furniture jumping as well for example.

They sure look like they are going to break to me! LOL!

OTOH, I have a friend with two that does formal obedience with hers. She has the most AMAZING “drop on recalls” with hers, because they are so light weight as well as being really speedy. She calls them toward her, the judge cues the drop, she tells the, to drop, and they drop so fast that they are on the floor but skid about 6’ before they stop moving! The whole audience giggles! Hey! They dropped the SECOND she told them to! And BOTH of them do it, so it is the way she has trained them, just not a one-off with a single dog. But I don’t think it would work with a larger, heavier dog. And it CERTAINLY wouldn‘t work with a slower dog!

 

[krandall]

Thanks a lot, CarolineS! I said to my wife CarolineS seems to be from Canada, I will post the questions about the breeders and mention our location just in case she is from Toronto

Plus you just got a puppy!!!! Please send me a message in the private chat if you can and tell me the breeder's name, if you are not allowed to do it I'll send you my phone in private. Thanks a lot, this is going to save a lot of research

It is fine to mention breeder’s names here! Especially if it is a good breeder, the information can be helpful to others in the future! No need for guessing ng games with the name! LOL!

 

[krandall]

Does this means that the Havanese has a higher chance of IVDD? Maybe we are looking at the wrong dog, it wasn’t easy dealing with IVDD with our dachshund

No. There is VERY little IVDD in Havanese. No more than in the general dog population.

 

[krandall]

Out of curiosity, I did a Google search for many different breeds and they all said IVDD is common in the breed. I have a feeling every single back injury is listed as IVDD making it appear genetic. However, just like us humans, I assume all dogs can tweak their back regardless of genetics.

I know an awful lot of Havanese, and the only couple I know who have had IVDD problems (one is part Hav and the other is not sure that the fx was correct) are on this group. I DO know that my vet, who is a rehab specialist, suggested that when I was running my dogs in afility, that I teach them running contacts due to their longer-than-tall stature. But she would say the same about any dog with a similar structure. Lots and LOTS of Havanese have long and successful agility careers with no back problems at all. (And most teach running contacts, both for back safety AND because it’s faster)

 

[krandall]

Yeah is a girl! we got her today. Rose is amazing, she even asked us to call her during the first year to make sure it would be a successful integration into the family! Thanks for the tip, I told her it came from you.

Our daughter just walked into our bedroom because the dog was supposed to sleep on her kennel until she was potty trained, but it kept crying, so I said "Just leave her in your bed with you".

Everybody is sleeping and I need to rest too lol. Was that a bad advice?

Probably best to keep her in her kennel at night for now. It’s not just potty training, she could get hurt by falling off the bed at this age, chewing on things, etc. Put her small crate on a chair or bedside table, right near your daughter’s head, so that if she cries, your daughter can slip her fingers in between the wires to comfort her. It shouldn’t take many nights for her to learn the routine.

 

[krandall]

Congratulations. Rose is adorable! When my pups were babies I used a 19” Vari crate which I put on the bedside table for Issac and on the bed for Pepper. If they needed to go for a potty trip a quiet whine woke me and we could go without disturbing the household. Also if they whimpered when I put them back in the crate after the potty trip I just slipped my fingers through the crate door (no words needed) and they would settle back to sleep. When they were older I moved them to bedside table crates which work great.

Exactly what we do!

 

[krandall]

All of Rose’s puppies are used to sleeping in their crates so the crying is just because everything is new and a little scary. I put Ollie’s crate on the floor right beside my bed when he was that little. Crying didn’t last very long. The pups are also used to going into their crates for a couple of naps a day as well. Ollie had two naps a day, each 1 1/2 - 2 hours long, when he was little. With the vigilance it takes to successfully housebreak a puppy, you’ll be glad of the nap times so you can have a break!

Being crated not only helps with housebreaking, it is an essential skill dogs should have. At some point, a dog might need to be confined due to illness or situation. If something like that should occur, you don’t want to add to the dog’s stress by crating a dog who isn’t used to it.

Rose probably gave, or emailed, you some paperwork with helpful hints for housebreaking. One page is “housebreaking tips and potty schedule”. Crate time is an important part of it. I followed that very closely at first until I could get a handle on Ollie’s individual bladder control and sleep patterns. Rose gives them a good start on housebreaking and I think it gives pups some comfort to follow the same routine they’re used to. I live in a condo so I set up a potty patch inside an x-pen on my balcony. I think having it inside an x-pen was helpful because that’s what Rose does so Ollie knew right away what he was supposed to be doing in there. I never took my eyes off him for a second and if I couldn’t watch him closely, he was in his crate. It was exhausting but he was housebroken and asking to go outside in one week. 😀

I prefer an ex-pen with a potty tray for confinement during the day rather than a crate… I think a crate is awfully confining for a puppy. But other than that, this is all really good advice!

 

[krandall]

When I say Ollie’s potty was in an x-pen, it was a small area on the balcony I cordoned off with an x-pen. I butted it up against my balcony door so he’d just hop onto the balcony, onto the potty, do his business and hop off again. There wasn’t any room for him to get distracted and go sniffing around the rest of the balcony. LOL He was only in his crate for 2 naps a day and overnight when he was little. The rest of the time he was free in whatever room I was in. When I say I was exhausted, I really was because he was free a lot and I never took my eyes off him. I think he only had 3 or 4 piddle accidents and one poop accident that first week. I must have dozed off for a few seconds! 🤣 After that first week, he never had another accident in my condo. It was a pretty intense way to housebreak him, but hey, I live alone, Covid was still going strong, so what else did I have to do? 😉

I’m sure Rose’s puppies would easily transition to an x-pen for confinement if needed. At her house, when the puppies are old enough, they are moved into very large pens with their mums during the day. The pens contain crates with open doors for resting if they choose, fun stuff for them to investigate and climb on and lots of room for them to run and play. At the furthest end is a 4’x6’ piece of artificial turf where they naturally go to potty. So I’m sure if you had a decent size x-pen for your puppy with some sort of a turf potty in it, they’d have no problem figuring out where they were to do their business. 😀 Since Ollie was 14 weeks when I got him and the weather was okay for him to be briefly out on the balcony, I chose not to have anything indoors for him to potty on.

If you can supervise THAT closely, THAT much of the time, that is ideal! But very few people can. And if they need to confine the puppy for more than just naptime, an ex-pen with a potty tray (to avoid accidents) is a much more humane option than leaving a puppy in a crate for prolonged periods.

That’s GREAT that you were able to put such intense work into potty training him! It certainly works! But most people just don’r have that concentration, even if they have the time. their mind wanders and Oops! The puppy has another accident! For MOST people, far better to have a comfortable place that the puppy can safely be “stowed” while the human takes a break!