[Jammies]

UGH...I don't know much about puppy mills, but this sure looks like one to me! All those females and 2 males...and one of the males is for sale! I hope people do some research before buying!

 

[JASHavanese]

Now I'm really confused! The Lone Star Havanese Club in Texas sponsored one of their shows? http://12.30.186.138/

 

[Jammies]

Also, don't you think the prices are a "bit" high????

 

[Leeann]

It is no more than personal preference. Some just don't want to give out the AKC papers with their lines out of total protection.
I do use APRI on some litters with the litters our of the ones I have championed out....mainly for the sake of that customer having fun with the pedigree to their dog.....we are talking about "pet" only buyers. Another reason is APRI draws a name once a month for what they call a "free" puppy. To be in the drawing the person must send a copy of their purchase agreement with the puppy registration. If their name is drawn, APRI will reimburse them the purchase price paid for their puppy up to $1200. I have had one of my customers win this. It was great! It is no different than putting a bow on the puppy, it is not needed but isn't it cute for the new owner when the pick up their puppy.....they get a kick out of it. :O)
But primarily my new puppy owners get spay/neuter contracts regardless of which registration is used or even if the litter is duel registered. Even at that, they rarely even register their puppy so it really doesn't matter which registry is handed out to pet buyers.
And it is beside the point of the topic. The topic was "what is APRI". The answers were basically "A puppy mill registry" in which my answer was there are going to be puppy mills regardless of the registry used because unfortunetly they are everywhere......the news testifies to that. I have seen AKC pups I wouldn't have taken for free and I know you all have as well.

Protection? How can one research the health of the puppy they are purchasing with out knowing the line? How can I protect myself if you are hiding VERY important information?

 

[JASHavanese]

Protection? How can one research the health of the puppy they are purchasing with out knowing the line? How can I protect myself if you are hiding VERY important information?

You can go to offa.org and look up the sire and dam and it will show you the basics. It doesn't tell you if the parents are CD, doesn't tell you if mitral valve has been found, doesn't tell you if there is epilepsy in the lines, doesn't tell you if a dog has SA, doesn't tell you if heart murmurs are in the lines, etc. Every line out there has SOMETHING in it and if a person tells you there has never been a health problem in their lines I'd run like the wind.
So how do you protect yourself? I guess you pray or hope for honesty. Then again, there are some things that can be in lines that can be bred away from if it takes two to tango. If you're breeding away from it and it's not going to come forward, why scare the heck out of someone

 

[Leeann]

Jan being a breeder I KNOW you would not buy a puppy without checking the line or OFA to protect yourself and your line the best you can so why should anyone else not have the same opportunity even if the puppy is not for breeding purposes. Using APRI does not allow us as puppy buyers ANY information.

 

[JASHavanese]

Jan being a breeder I KNOW you would not buy a puppy without checking the line or OFA to protect yourself and your line the best you can so why should anyone else not have the same opportunity even if the puppy is not for breeding purposes. Using APRI does not allow us as puppy buyers ANY information.

Everyone does deserve honesty, not just breeders. My comment is that even though I breed (rarely, but since I have bred I'm a breeder) that doesn't mean that everyone is honest, even to another breeder and we're seeing pretty bad things come into our breed because of it.
You know why I come here and read and don't read the yahoo group list mail (other than I just don't have time right now)? It's because most here are pet owners and that's where I hear the truth from.
This is the place I learned we have liver issues in our breed and pet owners openly speak about it. Pet owners have nothing to lose by being open. if a breeder says this or that is in their line the fit hits the shan.
I remember when I posted that a puppy from Bandit had an overbite. I got called any name you could think of for my honesty and was called a liar by friends of the owner of the stud saying I was trying to destroy the stud's reputation. MY dog had this puppy and that was my only thought. Those of you who have seen the Havanese Horizons have seen pictures of him. He's a doll and always looks like he's smiling :biggrin1: because of the overbite but that doesn't mean I'm happy that it happened but things don't always work out the way you wish they could.
APRI doesn't give you much information however stop and think about it. When you (et al) bought your puppy were you told what was in their lines? I'm still doing research to find out what's in my lines and that research will never stop because I can't breed away from something if I don't know about it.
Yes, you can go to offa.org and look up some health tests however that doesn't cover everything. That being said, I still want to see health records and tests that have been done. Right now that's about all we have to go by other than talking to people who have dogs that are a few years old that come from the same lines and frankly the information I get from people with older dogs weighs heavier than the ofa testing does but that doesn't mean I'm going to get a puppy from anyone with problems recorded on ofa.

 

[Lunastar]

It would be nice if everyone was honest. Jan you are right we all deserve honesty. You know what I'm going to email my breeder and let him know Zoey has had some problems with pancreatitis. I just never thought it would matter but maybe after reading your post maybe it does.

 

[Chere]

Well, I'll chime in here with our experiences as rescue adopters. Our dogs came out of a puppy mill and we got them when they were two years old. We were not really looking for a Hav specifically but were on three different breed rescue groups. We did research to find several breeds that we thought would meet our needs and we knew we wanted rescue if at all possible.

Our Havs are wonderful but I can look at their feet and tell they are not really right, they spay out to the sides. One has signs of liver issues which are controlled right now. We love them and would not trade them but we will be faced with higher vet bills (most likely) than owners who buy health checked puppies from responsible breeders. Our dogs likely were bred before we got them and so any faults they have might have been passed on.

It is likely that I will always have rescue dogs as I just believe in rescue but my way is not for everyone. Anyone wanting a healthy puppy should go for a responsible breeder who health checks. Registration anywhere means nothing without that, in my opinion.

I grew up when cocker spaniels were hugely popular; as a result they became popular with mills and backyard breeders and the breed suffered tremendously, to the point that many vets recommended not getting a cocker spaniel because of the breeding issues that resulted in temperment and health issues. Other breeds have also gone through this. Our last dog was a cocker and she was wonderful but had many and severe health issues that hurt her and cost us many dollars.

Knowing the line of your puppies parents and the health of generations is so important unless you are prepared to risk future problems. I don't want to be misunderstood here, I also support adopting from shelters but anyone doing that must know that there could be issues that cannot be foreseen.

 

[mimismom]

As a fairly new dog owner and one that had not fully understood registering before, I can say that the general consumer who sees "registered" on a dog for sale will assume that they are getting a dog that is registered with the AKC and has had proper health testing done.

I have seen some breeders and dog stores charge extra because their dogs are registered with CKC, APRI, and any other "Kennel Club" you care to mention. Did you know some of these include hybrids? (To me those dogs are mutts, and makes no sense to register them but to each his/her own)

What I hate to see is that people are often misled into purchasing a dog they feel is up to standard and of highest quality lines because of some registry attached to that dog.

If the breeders would explain the guidelines and criteria of the registries to the potential new dog owners, that would begin to build awareness.

And Yes, I think it does matter as to "why you would use the APRI as a registry" in this topic. It gives everyone a better understanding of what the registery is all about and how it is used.

If a breeder wants to keep protect their AKC registration, they why give "papers" at all to pet-only owners? why not do limited registry? To me, that would seem misleading. > "The parents are AKC, but I am going to give you this other registry instead">

I have yet to purchase a registered dog, but am considering it in the near future. My inquiries are so that I can be an informed customer and have a better understanding about registries.

 

[Jennifer Clevenger]

Everyone does deserve honesty, not just breeders. My comment is that even though I breed (rarely, but since I have bred I'm a breeder) that doesn't mean that everyone is honest, even to another breeder and we're seeing pretty bad things come into our breed because of it.
You know why I come here and read and don't read the yahoo group list mail (other than I just don't have time right now)? It's because most here are pet owners and that's where I hear the truth from.
This is the place I learned we have liver issues in our breed and pet owners openly speak about it. Pet owners have nothing to lose by being open. if a breeder says this or that is in their line the fit hits the shan.
I remember when I posted that a puppy from Bandit had an overbite. I got called any name you could think of for my honesty and was called a liar by friends of the owner of the stud saying I was trying to destroy the stud's reputation. MY dog had this puppy and that was my only thought. Those of you who have seen the Havanese Horizons have seen pictures of him. He's a doll and always looks like he's smiling :biggrin1: because of the overbite but that doesn't mean I'm happy that it happened but things don't always work out the way you wish they could.
APRI doesn't give you much information however stop and think about it. When you (et al) bought your puppy were you told what was in their lines? I'm still doing research to find out what's in my lines and that research will never stop because I can't breed away from something if I don't know about it.
Yes, you can go to offa.org and look up some health tests however that doesn't cover everything. That being said, I still want to see health records and tests that have been done. Right now that's about all we have to go by other than talking to people who have dogs that are a few years old that come from the same lines and frankly the information I get from people with older dogs weighs heavier than the ofa testing does but that doesn't mean I'm going to get a puppy from anyone with problems recorded on ofa.

Kudos Jan!!!! I feel the same way as you. We all know that there are different health problems in most of the lines. There is because we started with such a small gene pool. I would rather have a puppy with an overbite than a liver shunt. Once Dr. Center gets done with finding the gene responsible for liver shunts and figures out if it takes both parents to be carriers, we can make better decisions in the whelping box but right now everyone needs to be forthcoming so we don't double up on health problems.

 

[Jennifer Clevenger]

What is his last name? Under the clubs page, he acts as though he is an HCA member. I think HCA should check up on this to see if he is misleading the public.